Paula Vennells says ex-Post Office IT director called Horizon issues ‘nonsense’
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Paula Vennells has blamed a former Post Office IT director for issues with the Horizon computer system not being investigated in 2009.
In her written evidence to the public inquiry, the organisation’s disgraced former boss revealed that an article by Computer Weekly on Horizon issues was dismissed as “nonsense” by bosses.
Mike Young, the former operations director, who was in charge of IT at the Post Office until 2012, allegedly said that the trade magazine “did not know what it was talking about” in relation to Horizon.
Mr Young had been “adamant” that the article, which first revealed the plight of sub-postmasters suffering unexplained accounting shortfalls, should not be treated as a “red flag”, according to Ms Vennells.
She wrote in her witness statement to the inquiry: “I remember the Computer Weekly article because it was mentioned by Mike Young at a meeting of the executive management team which I attended.”
She added: “Mike told us that the article was critical of Horizon and had been picked up by a Welsh-language television station.
“I remember this reasonably well because Mike was dismissive of Computer Weekly. I recall he said it was a trade magazine that did not know what it was talking about in relation to Horizon. Mike said he was handling it.
“I spoke to him about it after the meeting because I was still concerned. He assured me that there was nothing wrong with the system and that the article was nonsense (or words to that effect).”
She said later in her 861-page written statement that it was because Mr Young took such a “firm view” on this that potential issues with the Horizon system were not escalated further within the organisation.
“As a non-IT specialist, I accepted that Mike, with his knowledge of IT and the Horizon system, had considered the article fairly and that it was no cause for concern. This message was reinforced during my time as MD of POL between 2010 and 2012,” she added.
The disclosures were made as Ms Vennells, 65, began her first of three days of evidence before the public inquiry.
Jason Beer, the lead counsel to the inquiry, questioned her on why she had a tendency to recall things that “diminish your blameworthiness” in her testimony.
He accused her of often saying she doesn’t recall matters that could potentially be damaging to the Post Office, but
“I don’t believe that’s the way I approach my statement at all,” she replied, adding that she had the intention to approach it with integrity and honesty.
It also emerged that Mr Young, who is mentioned frequently throughout Ms Vennells’ witness statement but has not yet been called to appear before the inquiry, said in 2012 that Post Office bosses “should not bother” meeting with an MP who wanted to discuss concerns by his constituents about Horizon.
Lord Arbuthnot, then MP for North East Hampshire, had written to Alice Perkins, the Post Office chairman, asking to meet as he was “deeply sceptical” at the Post Office’s view that there was nothing wrong with Horizon.
Ms Vennells wrote: “I recall that Alice was approached by Lord Arbuthnot, and Mike Young saying that we should not bother with it (or words to that effect).
“Alice and I both decided that she should meet Lord Arbuthnot on the basis that if there was nothing in the challenge, then we had nothing to worry about; and if there were issues, it was better to review what they were.”
The Telegraph has approached Mr Young for comment.
07:07 PM BST
That’s all for today
Thank you for following The Telegraph’s live coverage of today’s Post Office inquiry which saw Paula Vennells, the former Post Office chief executive, questioned by counsel to the inquiry.
Here is a summary of today’s events;
Paula Vennells began by apologising to subpostmasters and their families who were affected by the scandal
The inquiry was shown a text message exchange in which Dame Moya Greene, former CEO of Royal Mail Group accused Vennells of knowing about Horizon errors
Vennells wept as she was asked why she had told MPs that every prosecution case involving Horizon was successful
She apologised for her comment that subpostmasters had been “tempted to put their hands in the till” and said it was an “assumption” she made
Former subpostmasters accused Vennells of making a “PR apology”
Vennells sobbed again as she recalled speaking with father of Martin Griffiths, a postmaster who took his own life
She broke down a third time over eight “disturbing” cases of wrongfully prosecuted subpostmasters
Alan Bates’ partner described Ms Vennells’ apology to the former subpostmaster as “meaningless”
Vennells told inquiry of her regret at referring to subpostmaster complaints as ‘noise’
Former subpostmaster Tim McCormack told Paula Vennells: ‘I do wonder what kind of god you worship’
Speaking outside the inquiry, Mr Bates said he had “no sympathy” for Paula Vennells after she broke down in tears thrughout the inquiry.
You can read more about the Post Office Horizon scandal here.
The inquiry will continue tomorrow morning, with Paula Vennells scheduled to continue giving evidence.
06:13 PM BST
Pictured: Paula Vennells leaves Aldwych House after giving evidence at the Horizon IT inquiry
05:19 PM BST
Alan Bates has ‘no sympathy’ for Paula Vennells
Campaigner Alan Bates said he had “no sympathy” for Paula Vennells after she broke down in tears at various points during the inquiry.
Speaking outside Aldwych House after Ms Vennells gave evidence, Mr Bates said: “The whole thing is upsetting for everybody, including for so many of the victims.
“I’ve got no sympathy really.”
Asked if he thinks she is genuinely sorry, he added: “I wonder about these apologies, these are just words.”
05:12 PM BST
Vennells ‘did not register’ briefing given before 2015 select committee meeting
Paula Vennells said she “did not register” a briefing given before she gave evidence to the select committee.
The briefing told her that if she was pushed on answers whilst being questioned by MPs, she could acknowledge that a “functionality” existed in the Horizon IT system for the Post Office or Fujitsu to edit, manipulate or remove transaction data once it had been recorded in a branch’s accounts.
She added that she “did not reach a conclusion” that she was giving “inaccurate information to the select committee”.
04:50 PM BST
Vennells did not ‘understand’ Fujitsu could edit balancing transactions
Paula Vennells said she did not “understand” that Fujitsu could edit balancing transactions on the morning that she was questioned at a select committee hearing.
Writing in her witness statement, Ms Vennells said that on the morning of the appearance, she “believed it to be true that there was no functionality in Horizon for either branches, POL or Fujitsu to edit, manipulate or remove transaction data once it had been recorded in a branch’s accounts.”
Yet Mr Beer pointed out that notes in her briefing document effectively said she should disclose this was not the case, if “pressed twice”.
Ms Vennells said: “Then at the time I didn’t register that.
“This was my understanding, that it was not possible to access a branches account remotely without the subpostmaster being aware of it and that was based on my understanding of what was explained to me in 2014.
“I accept what you say is that there is more information in that briefing further down…”
Ms Vennells later said: “I did not reach a conclusion that meant that I was giving inaccurate information to the select committee. That’s not something that I would have done.”
04:42 PM BST
Counsel not permitted to “impeach or question” evidence Ms Vennells gave to Parliament in 2015
Lead counsel to the inquiry has confirmed he cannot ask questions which would “impeach or question” the evidence Ms Vennells gave to Parliament in 2015.
Addressing Ms Vennells, Jason Beer KC said: “Because of rules concerning Parliamentary privilege, I’m not permitted to ask you questions, the effect of which would be to impeach or to question the evidence that you gave to parliament on February 3, 2015. You understand?”
“Yes,” said Ms Vennells.
04:34 PM BST
Vennells told colleagues she ‘needed to say’ remote access was not possible
Ms Vennells was asked why she told colleagues she “needed to say” remote access was not possible - ahead of a select committee hearing in 2015.
Emails shown to the inquiry showed the former chief executive asking her comms chief Mark Davies and IT boss Lesley Sewell: “What’s the true answer?”
“I hope it is that we know this is not possible and we are able to explain why that is. I need to say no it is not possible.”
When asked why she phrased this request in this way, Ms Vennells told the inquiry: “I phrased this point very specifically and I can remember why I did this. Alice Perkins [former Post Office chair] - not related to this specifically - but I can remember Alice Perkins saying to me at some stage, ‘Paula if you want to get the truth and a really clear answer from somebody you should tell them what it is you want to say very clearly and then ask for the information that backs it up’, that is why I phrased it in that way”.
When pressed further, Ms Vennells said: “I am very sorry, I am giving you completely the truthful answer on this.
“I remember why I phrased this this way. Not because I was trying to tell people what the answer was at all but because I was trying to get them to phrase something in a way that said, from my understanding, this is what it should be.”
04:09 PM BST
Former subpostmaster told Paula Vennells: ‘I do wonder what kind of god you worship’
A former subpostmaster asked Paula Vennells: “I do wonder what kind of god you worship.”
The ex-Post Office boss was questioned on a number of emails she received from Tim McCormack trying to warn her about the faulty Horizon IT system in 2016.
The inquiry heard how the subpostmaster received a standard response to one of his emails, with Post Office lawyer Rodric Williams commenting before the response was sent: “Generally my view is that this guy is a bluffer, who keeps expecting us to march to his tune. I don’t think we should do, but instead respond with a straight bat.”
Ms Vennells denied thinking that Mr McCormack was a bluffer.
Mr McCormack sent another email to Ms Vennells in July 2016, saying: “A typical head in the sand reply from the team you have placed too much trust in. Once the police investigation is completed it is highly likely, indeed probable, that members of your staff will be sent to prison. Your role in this will not escape attention.”
He added: “I do wonder what kind of god you worship.”
04:01 PM BST
Vennells routinely received correspondence about subpostmasters’ issues
Paula Vennells accepted that she routinely received correspondence about issues subpostmasters were facing.
Asked if she saw a pattern in the correspondence, she said: “I saw the theme of Horizon coming up.”
“Was anything done by you to join the dots between them?” counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked.
Ms Vennells replied: “The dots I believed were being joined through the investigation work in the Complaints Mediation Scheme and in every case I believed we had looked at it in some detail and I regret today that clearly neither of those exposed the issues that we came to find out about through the Horizon issues judgment.”
03:56 PM BST
Vennells agreed it is ‘serious issue’ if ‘folklore’ about Horizon developed unchecked
Jason Beer KC asked if it is a “serious issue” if “folklore develops” which has “no foundation in fact”.
Ms Vennells said: “I agree.”
Mr Beer also asked if it says something about the culture of the Post Office if “such folklore developed or was perpetuated and nobody checked the real facts?”
Ms Vennells replied: “That’s a difficult question to answer because in hindsight it is completely valid. At the time, certainly where I was concerned, I believed that I was getting information from the people who were employed to give me the best advice because of their expertise. I didn’t believe that any of those things were folklore at all.”
03:45 PM BST
Vennells asked why ‘false statements’ and ‘folklore’ about Horizon circulated within Post Office
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked Paula Vennells why a number of “false statements” or “folklore” about Horizon were circulating within the Post Office.
Mr Beer put to her that the Post Office falsely believed that every time it went to court it won, that there were no faults in Horizon and that there was no remote access for Fujitsu.
Ms Vennells responded: “At the time they were not considered to be false statements. The source of those statements, I can’t recall clearly, but on something like this the only possible source of this statement would have been through the Post Office legal team.
“So the answer for all of them would be to look for where the expertise sat within the organisation as to the genesis of what we now know are false statements.”
03:22 PM BST
Vennells regrets concerns raised by former subpostmaster ‘took too long to address’
Ms Vennells has said she regrets that concerns raised by a former subpostmaster “took too long to address”.
In 2015, Tim McCormack wrote to Ms Vennells warning her that he had “clear and unquestionable evidence of an intermittent bug in Horizon that can and does cause thousands of pounds in losses to subpostmasters”.
Asked what she did after receiving this, Ms Vennells said: “I don’t recall.”
Amid gasps from those in the room, she went on: “Genuinely, I don’t recall.”
She later added: “In hindsight I think he was right and I regret that the matters he was raising took too long to address.”
03:12 PM BST
‘Competely unfair’ for Post Office to maintain there were no systemic errors in Horizon
Paula Vennells has said it was “completely unfair” of the Post Office to maintain that there were no systemic errors in Horizon.
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked if a “frequent refrain” of the Post Office in 2014 was that there were no systemic errors in Horizon.
Ms Vennells replied: “It was, and it was wrong...it was completely unfair to use in the business.”
03:08 PM BST
Vennells ‘regrets’ referring to subpostmaster complaints as ‘noise’
Paula Vennells said she “regrets” using the word “noise” in association with complaints launched by subpostmasters about the Horizon IT system.
Asked at the inquiry if mere “noise” was how complaints were regarded among Post Office chiefs, Ms Vennells said: “No, and I’m sorry it is not a good word but you have also seen how I have responded personally to other individual matters.
“It is a word I regret using.”
Asked if it reflected the “workings of the minds” of those at the top of the business, Ms Vennells said: “I think it reflects a wrong understanding, yes, that people believed that Horizon worked and this is me deploying a word that was unwise.
“I did not in any way mean that I personally did not take seriously issues when they got to me.”
03:04 PM BST
Former subpostmaster attends inquiry immediately after conviction cleared in court
A former subpostmaster has gone straight from court to the inquiry after her conviction was quashed.
Sushma Blaggan, 62, who ran Dale Acre Post Office in Litherland, Merseyside, lived for two decades wrongfully labelled a criminal after being convicted of theft when a shortfall of £8,000 emerged.
After her name was cleared at the Royal Courts of Justice on Wednesday morning, she travelled across London to Aldwych House to watch the former Post Office boss Paula Vennells give evidence.
Her husband Narrinder Blaggan, 58, said: “For Sushma to have appeared in court two decades after being wrongfully prosecuted, and for an inquiry only to be hearing from Ms Vennells as to what went wrong on the very same day, just shows how badly subpostmasters have been let down.
“I hope Ms Vennells was made aware that we were at the inquiry today, and that we came straight from court.”
02:49 PM BST
Jailed former subpostmistress not convinced Vennells’ apology genuine
A former subpostmistress, who was pregnant when she was handed a 15-month sentence for an alleged shortfall, said she “didn’t know” if Ms Vennells’ apology was genuine.
Speaking to The Telegraph, Seema Misra - who was found guilty of theft after a 2010 trial - said: “I don’t know, it’s like a ritual, they just come in and say ‘sorry’, she might mean it, she might mean it - I just don’t know.”
When asked about the time Ms Vennells broke down when asked about the suicide of Martin Griffiths, Mrs Misra said: “That’s the saddest bit - Post Office forced him to take his life.
“The scandal will stay with us for the rest of our lives, it should haunt the people responsible for the scandal for the rest of their lives as well.”
She added: “Where were those tears when Mr Griffiths took his own life, where were the tears then?”
You can hear more coverage of the Post Office inquiry on today’s episode of The Daily T from 5pm. Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
02:43 PM BST
Former subpostmaster says Vennells will never shed as many tears as he has
Lee Castleton, a former subpostmaster, has said Paula Vennells will “never” shed as many tears as he has.
Mr Castleton, from Bridlington, East Yorkshire, was found to have a £25,000 shortfall at his branch in 2004. He was made bankrupt after he lost his legal battle with the Post Office.
Asked about Ms Vennells breaking down in tears, he said: “She’ll never shed as many as I have, I’m afraid, or my family, or the rest of the victims or the wider group.
“Not that I have no empathy for that because I do, I understand completely.
“I’d imagine a lot of it’s nerves too and doing her best. I think she’s got a need or want to do the right thing.”
02:36 PM BST
Ms Vennell’s apology to Alan Bates “meaningless”, says his partner
Alan Bates’ partner has described Ms Vennells’ apology to the former subpostmaster as “meaningless”.
The former chief executive named Mr Bates – whose fight for justice against the Post Office inspired the ITV drama Mr Bates vs The Post Office – as one of several individuals she wanted to apologise to for making their work “so much harder”.
Mr Bates arrived to hear Ms Vennells’ evidence with his partner Suzanne Sercombe.
Speaking to The Telegraph, she said: “It’s water off a duck’s back – the same with her crying, we are the victims here, not her.
“It’s meaningless because she did not do anything in years gone past when she should have done something. It’s like, ‘Sorry I got found out’.”
The couple joined other subpostmasters in the hearing to watch Ms Vennells continue giving evidence.
02:26 PM BST
Inquiry resumes
Questioning of Ms Vennells continues as the inquiry resumes after breaking for lunch.
02:20 PM BST
Vennells broke down over ‘disturbing’ cases of wrongfully prosecuted subpostmasters
Paula Vennells broke down in tears for a third time when speaking about eight “disturbing” cases of wrongfully prosecuted sub-postmasters.
Ms Vennells said: “All the cases that came into the mediation scheme that they were going to look into, were by their nature disturbing. My purpose in circulating these cases was from a…”
She recovered and continued: “It was from a point of view of compassion. There were questions in the organisation at a board and a group executive level about whether this was a distraction of management time.
“When I read these reports it seemed to me that this was an important distraction of management time and that any colleagues who might think this was not a good use of money to be invested in and investigated were clearly wrong.”
02:13 PM BST
Vennells received direct correspondence from subpostmasters having issues with Horizon
The Horizon IT Inquiry heard that Paula Vennells received direct correspondence from subpostmasters having issues with the computer system from 2012.
Ms Vennells sent an email after receiving word from subpostmaster Pervez Nakvi about Horizon issues in February 2012, in which the former Post Office chief executive said: “It is very frustrating to receive mails like this. Pervez is right to raise it.
“It is my understanding that Horizon is reliable...but if trusted individuals like Pervez are now not feeling that is the case are we monitoring the right metrics?”
Asked if it was relevant that they were a trusted individual, she said: “I responded to all complaints in the exact same way. It would not have made a difference whether I knew the subpostmaster or not.”
Pressed on whether all complaints raised by subpostmasters would call for investigation, Ms Vennells said: “I would hope so. I’m sure there are cases where that was not the case but I would have tried to.”
01:49 PM BST
Vennells did not see report that said Post Office systems were not fit for purpose
Paula Vennells has said she did not see a report which found Post Office systems were not fit for purpose.
Ms Vennells agreed that a 2013 report by Detica, a consulting division of BAE systems, “ought” to have been brought to her attention by either Lesley Sewell, Chris Aujard or Angela van den Bogerd.
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC said: “This is essentially marking some of Second Sight’s homework and agreeing with it, isn’t it?
Ms Vennells responded: “It is, yes.”
Mr Beer went on: “That’s an important fact for you, isn’t it? That independent consultants Detica have been brought in and they essentially agree with Second Sight on the points identified there.”
Ms Vennells replied: “Yes.”
Asked why the report was kept from her, she said: “I was not under the impression that people were intentionally withholding information from me.”
01:32 PM BST
Inquiry breaks for lunch
The inquiry has now broken for lunch and is scheduled to resume at 2.15pm.
01:31 PM BST
Horizon was like ‘Fort Knox’, said former Fujitsu boss
Fujitsu Europe’s then-CEO said the core of Horizon was like “Fort Knox” when discussing remote access, according to Paula Vennells’ witness statement.
Ms Vennells asked Duncan Tait if Fujitsu colleagues could alter branch accounts remotely, and said his response was no, adding: “We concurred it was an implausible scenario.”
She said: “Why would a Fujitsu colleague try to hack into a branch’s accounts? We couldn’t find any suitable explanation - there was no way they could benefit financially from such an action. The only possible reason would be a malicious act by a disgruntled employee.
“Duncan described the core of Horizon like a black box, ie., similar to an aircraft flight recorder; he said that even if someone wanted to, it was not possible to alter or break it.
“I had heard the black box description before. He described how secure the system was – that even if someone had the motivation, it just wasn’t possible – Horizon was like Fort Knox.
“I found it reassuring that the CEO of Fujitsu confirmed that there was no cause for concern and that the system could not be tampered with.”
01:10 PM BST
Vennells giving evidence to room with ‘eyes full of hatred’, says former subpostmaster
Janet Skinner, a former subpostmaster, said Paula Vennells is giving evidence to a room of people with “eyes full of hatred” as she expressed sympathy for the former Post Office chief executive.
Ms Skinner said: “I’ll be honest I felt quite emotional this morning. I actually felt emotional for her because she is up there and she has got all these eyes there that are just full of hatred towards her and that must be such an overwhelming, horrible, intense feeling.”
She said Ms Vennells “has brought it all on herself”, adding: “This is her time on that stand to now put her side of the story out there.
“Everybody has chucked mud at her, it’s time for her to open up and be quite open and honest about who was at the forefront of it all.”
Ms Skinner was sentenced to nine months in prison in 2007 for false accounting. She was 35 at the time and had to leave her two children behind.
01:05 PM BST
Ripples of laughter as Vennells reacts to inflammatory emails
A ripple of laughter was heard at the hearing as Ms Vennells responded to an inflammatory statement written in an email by former Post Office managing director Alan Cook.
In an email previously shown to the inquiry, Mr Cook told colleagues: “My instincts tell that in a recession subbies with their hand in the till choose to blame the technology when they are found to be short of cash.”
Addressing Ms Vennells, Mr Beer KC said: “Was that a sentiment that you agreed with?
Ms Vennells said: “No I never used the word ‘subbies’, I thought it was completely the wrong word” – prompting laughter.
Mr Beer then added: “What about the more important thing – about them having their hands in the till?”
Slightly flustered, Ms Vennells replied: “I beg your pardon. I wasn’t avoiding that question. Either calling them ‘subbies’, or people with hands in the till.”
12:57 PM BST
Vennells denied trying to ‘counter the narrative’ around Martin Griffiths’ suicide
Paula Vennells denied trying to “get on the front foot” and “counter the narrative” that Martin Griffiths committed suicide because the Post Office ruined his life.
In an email which Ms Vennells sent to, among others, former top Post Office executive Angela van den Bogerd, the inquiry heard Ms Vennells wrote: “I possibly heard but may be confusing with a previous case that Martin had had some mental health issues.”
She denied that she heard the information from a rumour.
She also denied tasking a team with creating a counter narrative to the notion Mr Griffiths had committed suicide because his life was ruined by the Post Office.
Ms Vennells said: “No. What I was trying to do, quite simply, was to get the wider picture and to understand particularly the very difficult challenges that Mr Bates had levelled at some Post Office colleagues.”
12:51 PM BST
No ‘motivation’ to put needs of Post Office over suffering of subpostmasters
Paula Vennells has said there was no “motivation” to put the needs of the Post Office over the suffering of subpostmasters during the Horizon scandal.
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked: “Were you preoccupied with the need to protect the Post Office’s reputation and brand?”
Ms Vennells said: “Yes, but not to the extent of putting that over and above the suffering of the subpostmasters.”
Mr Beer replied: “Did you know they were suffering?”
Ms Vennells said: “That’s a difficult question to answer because the answer is yes and no, I understood clearly if people are being prosecuted, that was a very difficult thing and the reason that we put in place the review of Second Sight and the mediation scheme was to look into that. I wasn’t personally aware at the time because I wasn’t involved in the prosecutions.”
Questioned on whether she put the needs of the business over the suffering of subpostmasters, Ms Vennells said there “will be many examples of where that is clearly the case”.
She said: “In terms of a personal approach I don’t ever recall that being a motivation. I can see with hindsight that there will be many examples of where that is clearly the case because the Post Office got this very wrong.”
12:47 PM BST
Watch: Former Royal Mail chief executive told Vennells ‘I think you knew’ in text messages
12:34 PM BST
Vennells did not know of criminal investigations against staff until five years after she joined
Paula Vennells has said she didn’t realise the Post Office was bringing criminal investigations against its own staff until five years after she joined Royal Mail.
Ms Vennells spent 12 years in the organisation – first joining as group network director before moving on to the position of managing director and finally the chief executive in 2012.
Addressing Ms Vennells, Jason Beer KC said: “You’re telling us that for five years as network director and then managing director – so between 2007 and 2012 – you did not know that there was a department called POID , the Post Office Investigation Division, that it employed up to 100 people and that their job was to conduct criminal investigations around the country into your staff?”
Ms Vennells said: “I certainly didn’t know the size of the team that’s for sure.
She added: “I didn’t understand the extent of what it was until 2012 and I’m very sorry for that.”
12:28 PM BST
Accusations of blame by Alan Bates ‘unhelpful’
Accusations of blame by campaigner Alan Bates after Martin Griffiths’ death were “unhelpful”, Paula Vennells said.
An email from Mr Bates criticising the Post Office after Mr Griffiths’ death was shown to the inquiry, to which Ms Vennells said the campaigner was “rightly very, very angry about this”, but his language about her colleagues “was extreme”.
Jason Beer KC asked: “You say in your statement that ‘this was a time of great distress for Mr Griffiths’ family, and I felt the accusations of blame were unhelpful’ ... Is that right that you felt that Mr Bates’ accusations of blame were unhelpful?”
Ms Vennells responded: “I think at this stage some of those accusations of blame were unhelpful, yes, because the Post Office needed to respond to this properly and at that stage, I had no understanding as to what had gone on.”
12:01 PM BST
Vennells in tears as she recalls speaking with father of postmaster who took his own life
Ms Vennells sobbed as she told the inquiry how she had spoken to the father of a subpostmaster who had taken his own life.
Ms Vennells was asked about her response to the news that subpostmaster Martin Griffiths was dangerously ill in hospital after stepping in front of a bus.
At the time, Mr Griffiths was being wrongfully blamed for shortfalls totalling £100,000 at his branch.
Responding to questions on why Ms Vennells emailed general counsel Susan Crichton stating there were usually “several contributory factors” and asking if the police were involved, Ms Vennells said: “I had a personal experience of a previous Post Office colleague who had took his own life and I phoned the family and I spoke to the father who explained to me that there were other issues involved and I imagined ...”
At this point Ms Vennells started to cry and paused to compose herself.
She then added: “In this particular case I had spoken to the subpostmaster’s father who had said to me that there were other contributory factors in his son’s death and they were very grateful for the call that I had made.”
Turning back to Mr Griffiths, Ms Vennells said: “In Mr Griffiths’ case I also offered to do the same and I was told by the general counsel of the crown offices that that wasn’t needed and other people were in the loop.”
Ms Vennells also apologised to Mr Griffiths’ family.
12:00 PM BST
Subpostmaster accuses Vennells of ‘PR apology’
A former subpostmaster has accused Paula Vennells of making a “PR apology”.
Mark Kelly, 45, who was a subpostmaster in Swansea from 2003 to 2006, said: “The apology I think was quite well-rehearsed, the speech of the apology and also the response to the questions.
“The reason why I think the apology was more like a PR apology was because all these years she could have made an apology like that.
“Why did she have to wait until today to do that?”
Jess Kaur, 52, an ex-postmistress in Walsall who was wrongly accused in 2009 of stealing £11,000, said: “I was just thinking to myself when she started crying that we were crying like that at the time.
“It was nice to see her tears, but at the same time she’s got a lot to answer for. She just needs to tell the truth.”
11:56 AM BST
Vennells apologises for ‘hand in the till assumption’
Paula Vennells apologised for her comment that subpostmasters had been “tempted to put their hands in the till” and said it was an “assumption” she made.
The Horizon IT inquiry heard Ms Vennells made the claim, among others, to a group of parliamentarians in June 2012.
She also told them the Post Office had never lost a case and that whenever the Horizon system had been investigated it was not found to have been at fault, the inquiry heard.
Of her comment that subpostmasters were being led into temptation, she said: “That’s a more difficult one to talk about. The first thing I would say on that is to apologise because I’m very aware that that was not the case and it was an assumption I made.”
She explained the assumption was based on “examples of cases” and what she had been told.
On her comment that the Post Office had never lost a case, Ms Vennells told the inquiry she drew that information from what she was told in a board meeting in January 2012, adding: “It was an understanding in the organisation that this was the case.”
“That the Post Office had a 100 per cent hit rate?” Jason Beer KC asked.
“I don’t think it was mentioned that way but yes in terms of the way that it’s described here and clearly that was completely inaccurate in many different ways,” Ms Vennells replied.
11:43 AM BST
Watch: Vennells breaks down in tears mid-evidence
11:41 AM BST
Vennells trusted information from ‘highest lawyers in organisation’
Ms Vennells has told the inquiry how she trusted information from the “highest lawyer in the organisation” but accepted it was “clearly completely inaccurate”.
The inquiry was shown minutes from a meeting attended by Ms Vennells and Susan Crichton, then the Post Office’s most senior in-house lawyer.
The document stated that Ms Crichton had told attendees that “the subpostmasters were challenging the integrity of the Horizon system.
“However, the system had been audited by RMG Internal Audit with the reports reviewed by Deloittes. The audit report was very positive.”
Ms Vennells said she couldn’t remember Ms Crichton making this statement but agreed with Mr Beer KC when he said it suggested prosecutions had a “hundred per cent hit rate”.
She added: “Clearly that was completely inaccurate in many different ways as you drew attention to before the break.”
Ms Vennells went on to say she wouldn’t have believed it was “false information”, adding: “If you’re given information by the highest lawyers in the organisation, you take it completely as the truth.
“Because you assume that lawyers – and I must be clear I’m not implying anything here at all in terms of Susan Crichton – but one assumes that lawyers work to a professional code … The Post Office didn’t, I think with hindsight, have sufficient oversight to check whether that was or wasn’t the case.
“So if that statement was made at a board meeting – if any statement was made at a board meeting – the board would take it as fact and truth.”
11:27 AM BST
Pictured: Vennells crying during questioning at inquiry
Paula Vennells has broken down in tears mid-evidence as she apologised for telling MPs the Post Office was successful in every court case against subpostmasters.
11:22 AM BST
Inquiry set to resume
The inquiry is about to resume after a short break.
11:19 AM BST
Email sent to Post Office employees ‘reads badly today’
Paula Vennells said an email she sent to three top Post Office employees “reads badly today”.
The email was sent to Jane MacLeod, former general counsel and company secretary of Post Office Ltd, Mark Davies, former Post Office communications director, and Alisdair Cameron, current Post Office chief financial officer.
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC accused Ms Vennells of saying in the email the Post Office’s priority was to protect subpostmasters for whom the Horizon system was working.
She said: “I am sorry first of all because this reads badly today.”
Ms Venells added: “That wasn’t how I intended it to be read. I had been told, and the inquiry has heard other people say the same, that nothing had been found and so my understanding at this time was that the way the business was operating was an acceptable way, and what I was trying to say here is that we needed to make sure that the business as it was operating remained a priority for us.”
Asked about what Mr Cameron told the inquiry previously - that Ms Vennells did not believe there had been any miscarriages of justice during her tenure - Ms Vennells said: “I think that’s right.”
11:16 AM BST
Messages between Vennells and former Royal Mail chief executive
11:13 AM BST
Paula Vennells weeps while being questioned
Paula Vennells wept as she was asked why she had told MPs that every prosecution case involving Horizon was successful and had been found in favour of the Post Office.
The former chief executive was read a list of cases by lead counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC just more than an hour after she began giving evidence.
Ms Vennells was questioned by MPs at a select committee hearing in 2015.
Mr Beer asked: “Why were you telling these parliamentarians that every prosecution involving the Horizon system had been successful and had been found in favour of the Post Office?”
Responding, Ms Vennells said: “I fully accept now that the Post Office, excuse me…” She then took a tissue, provoking quiet groans among those in the hearing room.
After composing herself, Ms Vennells continued: “The Post Office knew that. I completely accept that.
“Personally, I didn’t know that and I’m incredibly sorry that that happened to those people and to so many others.”
11:07 AM BST
Vennells denies she is blaming everything on Horizon
Ms Vennells denied she was trying to blame everything on the Horizon system while minimising the blame on the “conduct, competence and ethics” of those within the Post Office.
In her witness statement, the former chief executive said: “Their [subpostmasters’] lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system.”
Questioned on whether it was her intent to minimise the blame placed on the “conduct, competence and ethics” of those within the Post Office, Ms Vennells said: “No, not at all, and apologies that that’s not clear.
“There were a number of debates about the Horizon system – what I meant to say, or what I should have said, is as a result of all of the matters relating to Horizon and all the issues we have discussed that the inquiry is looking at.”
11:05 AM BST
Vennells reflections will demonstrate ‘deep remorse’
Ms Vennells said her reflections when giving evidence will demonstrate her “deep remorse” in her first witness statement for the Horizon IT inquiry.
In her statement dated March 8 2024, Ms Vennells said with hindsight “there are many things I and the Post Office should have done differently”.
She said: “As a result of my commitment to this statement and to the work of the inquiry, which has been my priority, I have had much to consider. With the benefit of hindsight, there are many things I and the Post Office should have done differently.
“I am now reflecting with care on these matters and I will expand upon them and answer them as fully as possible when I give my evidence to the inquiry in May.
“Those reflections will demonstrate my deep remorse. They will set out the lessons I have since learnt.”
11:05 AM BST
A former chief executive of the Royal Mail told Vennells ‘I think you knew’
The Post Office inquiry was shown a text message exchange in which Dame Moya Greene, former CEO of Royal Mail Group accused Paula Vennells of knowing about Horizon errors.
Ms Greene said: “I don’t know what to say. I think you knew.”
Ms Vennells replied: “No Moya, that isn’t the case.”
Ms Greene said: “I want to believe you. I asked you twice. I suggested you get an independent review reporting to you. I was afraid you were being lied to.
“You said the system had already been reviewed multiple times. How could you have not known?”
10:28 AM BST
Vennells claims she was ‘too curious’
There was a quiet burst of laughter in the hearing room when Paula Vennells told the inquiry she was sometimes criticised for being “too curious”.
The former chief executive defended herself as someone who asked questions within the business.
She said: “I was sometimes criticised in team development events for being too curious and stepping too much into people’s territory.”
10:26 AM BST
Biggest challenges was ‘realising how much went on’ at postmaster level
Ms Vennells said “one of the biggest challenges” has been “realising how much went on at an individual postmaster level”.
Giving evidence to the Horizon IT inquiry, she said: “One of the biggest challenges as I have been going through all of this documentation is realising how much went on at an individual postmaster level. When a bug affected a large number of post offices... they were raised.
“But if a single subpostmaster made a call X number of times to a service centre, it wouldn’t have been picked up and I think from a governance point of view there is a very important lesson around the issue of the institution and the individual.
“How does somebody as a chief executive of an institution that is large and complex have sight to what happens to an individual if they are affected by a bug?”
Asked if she did not believe there was a conspiracy to deny her information but rather that issues came out of the way the company was organised and structured, Ms Vennells said: “I think in the majority of cases yes that is true.”
Asked who was responsible for organising and structuring the company, she said: “As CEO you are accountable for everything. You have experts to report to you.”
10:13 AM BST
Conspiracy at Post Office ‘too far-fetched’
Ms Vennells has branded the idea of a conspiracy at the Post Office as “too far-fetched”.
When asked by Jason Beer KC if this was the case, Ms Vennells smiled slightly before saying: “No, I don’t believe that was the case.”
Ms Vennells added: “I have been disappointed particularly more recently listening to evidence at the inquiry, where I think I have learnt that people knew more than perhaps either they remembered at the time, or I knew of at the time.
“My deep sorrow in this is that I think that individuals, myself included, made mistakes, didn’t see things, didn’t hear things.
“I may be wrong, but that wasn’t the impression I had at the time. I have more questions now, but conspiracy feels too far-fetched.”
10:07 AM BST
Vennells says she is ‘very sorry’ to postmasters
Paula Vennells said she is “very very sorry” to all the subpostmasters and their families affected by the scandal.
The former chief executive of the Post Office offered personal apologies to Alan Bates, accountants from Second Sight and Lord Arbuthnot as she began her evidence at the inquiry.
After asking permission to give a short statement before giving evidence, she told the inquiry: “I would just like to say, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to do this in person, how sorry I am for all the subpostmasters and their families and others who have suffered as a result of all the matters that the inquiry has been looking into for so long.
“I followed and listened to all of the human impact statements and I was very affected by them.”
Ms Vennells added: “I am very very sorry. I would also like to repeat the apology which is in my witness statement to Alan Bates, to Ron Warmington and to Ian Henderson from Second Sight and to Lord Arbuthnot.
“I and those I worked with made their work so much harder and I am very very sorry for that.”
10:02 AM BST
Vennells too trusting
Asked if Ms Vennells was the unluckiest CEO in the United Kingdom, she replied: “I given was as much information as the inquiry has heard. There was information that I wasn’t given and others didn’t receive as well.
“One of my reflections on all this is that I was too trusting.”
09:59 AM BST
Vennells apologises
Former Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells has said “how sorry I am for all that subpostmasters and their families... have suffered” at the beginning of her evidence to the Horizon IT inquiry.
The inquiry has heard that one of Paula Vennells’ witness statements is 775 pages long.
09:56 AM BST
Witness statement
Ms Vennells’ witness statement is 775 pages long.
She has made three minor corrections to the document and has told the chairman she plans to answer all the questions put to her.
A second witness statement prepared by Ms Vennells is 23 pages long.
The statements will be uploaded to the inquiry’s website.
09:54 AM BST
Inquiry begins
Paula Vennells will be questioned by Jason Beer KC, lead counsel to the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry. Subpostmasters, press and lawyers are bustling around the hearing room at Aldywch House this morning.
She has taken to the stand in a grey suit and an orange scarf, and was sworn in on the bible. Sir Wyn Williams, the chairman of the inquiry, has warned her against answering any questions which would incriminate herself.
09:50 AM BST
Paula Vennells arriving at inquiry
Paula Vennells arrives at the Post Office Inquiry. Tight mouthed. She'll have to answer questions from 1000. @GMB @ITVX pic.twitter.com/6vNlOXzUpA
— Richard Gaisford (@richardgaisford) May 22, 2024
09:36 AM BST
Former postmaster Seema Misra calls on Vennells to ‘speak truth’
Seema Misra, a former subpostmaster, called on Paula Vennells to “speak truth”.
Ms Misra, who ran a Post Office in West Byfleet, Surrey, was jailed in 2010 after being accused of stealing £74,000. She was pregnant at the time.
Asked what she would say to Ms Vennells, Ms Misra told the PA news agency outside Aldwych House on Wednesday: “Please, for god’s sake, speak truth.
“That’s what we all deserve, we’ve been fighting such a long time... we want to know exactly what happened.”
She said she “of course” feels strongly about what Ms Vennells is going to tell the inquiry, adding: “We’ve heard her name so many times.”
Ms Misra said that no matter what happens, “we won’t give up”.
09:18 AM BST
Vennells expected to start at 10am
Ms Vennells is expected to start giving evidence to the Horizon IT Inquiry at 9.45am today.
It is the first time the former chief executive will face questions over her role in the scandal.
She has not previously spoken about her involvement, but has apologised for the “devastation” experienced by those affected.
09:03 AM BST
Questions over misleading business select committee
Ms Vennells is likely to face questions over whether she deliberately misled the business select committee at the inquiry today.
Jason Beer KC previously told the probe she made a false statement in 2012 to then Conservative MP Oliver Letwin when she wrote about the prosecution of subpostmasters, in which she said: “In every instance, the court has found in our favour.”
Questions about the Post Office’s alleged “defensive and self-absorbed” culture also loom over Ms Vennells - with the business’s current chief financial officer Alisdair Cameron speaking of an “unacceptable, self-serving” relationship with subpostmasters.
He told the probe that Ms Vennells had been “clear in her conviction from the day I joined that nothing had gone wrong” - adding that she did not believe there had been any miscarriages of justice.
She has not yet spoken in detail about her role in the scandal, but previously apologised for the “devastation caused to subpostmasters and their families”.
08:41 AM BST
‘I thought truth would be buried forever,’ says wrongfully prosecuted Horizon victim
Janet Skinner, who went to prison after being falsely accused of theft and then had the conviction quashed at the Court of Appeal, told BBC Radio 4: “I’ve had an apology from Alan Cook, who was also the CEO and was in position when I went to prison.
“Now the whole question is did she know and if she didn’t know then why were there people below her doing the positions they were paid to do? Then clearly none of them knew what they were doing.”
She added: “I thought the truth would be buried forever. All I’m hoping is we don’t hear a lot of ‘I do not recall and I do not remember’ which seems to be one of the main answers that runs through that Post Office system.”
08:32 AM BST
Former postmaster says he is looking forward to Vennells appearance
Lee Castleton, a former subpostmaster who faced bankruptcy as a result of losing a legal battle with the Post Office, said he was really looking forward to Vennells facing questions today.
Mr Castleton, from Bridlington, East Yorkshire, was found to have a £25,000 shortfall at his branch in 2004.
Speaking to BBC Radio 4, he said: “I’m really looking forward to, the stage is set for her to set the record however she sees fit. I think it’s important for moving forward and for the victims that she is heard.”
Mr Castleton said he was not looking for an apology, adding: “I just want factual evidence giving the truth, the days of [an apology] making any difference to me are long gone.
“I just want to know why this happened. And who knew what and when.”
08:17 AM BST
Emails reveal how Paula Vennells joked about drinking champagne after learning of CBE
Paula Vennells joked about drinking champagne after being told she would receive a CBE for her Post Office work, The Telegraph revealed.
News of the then-Post Office chief executive’s decoration was shared among staff in December 2018, just months before former sub-postmaster Alan Bates would win a High Court battle against the organisation.
Ms Vennells, who left the business weeks before the High Court verdict, had already handed in her resignation when a statement was drafted announcing that she would be made a Commander of the British Empire.
She was made a CBE in the 2019 New Years Honours List “for services to the Post Office and to charity”, but voluntarily handed the honour back after a petition attracted more than 1.2 million signatures.
Read the full story here.
08:09 AM BST
Vennells arrives
Former Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells has arrived at Aldwych House to give evidence to the inquiry into the Horizon IT scandal.
Ms Vennells arrived at 7.45am and did not answer any questions as she walked a short distance up to the venue.
Police officers had previously asked media to ensure there was a clear path for her to enter the building.
But she was surrounded by press as she exited a car a short way from the venue and was eventually escorted by police.
08:07 AM BST
Vennells faces questions hours after email surfaces
Ms Vennells is due to be questioned under oath just hours after an email surfaced which showed her describing potential wrongful convictions of subpostmasters as “very disturbing” more than a year before the company halted prosecutions.
ITV News reported that the October 2013 email, as well as a recording of a phone conversation involving Ms Vennells, confirmed she was sent case files of eight subpostmasters.
The email from Ms Vennells to Ron Warmington, a forensic accountant with firm Second Sight who were drafted in to review independently the Horizon system, read: “Apart from finding them very disturbing (I defy anyone not to), I am now even better informed.
“The form you have devised is very helpful as it removes some of the emotion and highlights very clearly areas we need to address as well as investigate for the mediation process, which I hope will bring closure for some of these people.
“As I said... I take this very seriously...”
08:04 AM BST
Welcome to The Telegraph’s coverage of the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
Good morning and welcome to The Telegraph’s live coverage of the Post Office Horizon IT scandal.
Paula Vennells, the disgraced former Post Office boss, is set to be questioned today.
The former chief executive is due to begin her three days of evidence to the Horizon IT Inquiry amid claims she covered-up the Post Office’s knowledge of bugs in the faulty accounting software.
It is likely she will also face questions of whether she deliberately misled MPs over the scandal.
Hundreds of subpostmasters were prosecuted by the business between 1999 and 2015 after Fujitsu’s Horizon made it appear as though money was missing at branches.
Ms Vennells, a 65-year-old ordained priest, was Post Office boss from 2012 to 2019. During this time the company was dealing with the fall-out of potential wrongful subpostmaster convictions.
She has been urged by the scandal’s victims to “come clean” with any possible personal wrongdoings.
