WOMEN AT WORK: FICTION VS. REALITY

WOMEN AT WORK: FICTION VS. REALITY

Speakers Include: Daisy Auger-Domínguez, Karen Pittman and J. Smith Cameron

The conversation moderated by Daisy Auger-Domínguez with Karen Pittman and J. Smith Cameron discusses their experiences portraying women in the workplace on successful shows, like "The Morning Show" and "Succession." They talk about the complexities of their roles, including gender dynamics, power struggles, and storytelling in the context of diverse workplaces. They delve into how societal shifts, cultural reckonings, and creative writing have influenced the portrayal of women and people of color on screen. Pittman and Smith Cameron also share personal insights on speaking up, navigating challenges, and building supportive communities within the industry. The conversation highlights the importance of representation, teamwork, and collaboration in driving positive change.

Video Transcript

[MUSIC PLAYING]

[APPLAUSE]

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: All right. Hi, everyone. All right. Well, welcome.

- Good morning.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Good morning, Ella. All right. Well, help me welcome Karen Pittman and J. Smith Cameron.

[APPLAUSE]

[LAUGHS]

They're coming. All right. Give these ladies a warm welcome.

[APPLAUSE]

That's right. Come on strutting. Yes. Because we can talk about workplace hurt and workplace joy. We can do it.

KAREN PITTMAN: Jeez, like I'm not walking like that on. Listen, I'm just going to walk.

J. SMITH CAMERON: My regular walk is already a little--

[LAUGHTER]

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: That was a perfect walk, ladies. Thank you so much for being here. I can't think of two women who portray what it's like to be a woman in the workplace better than the two of you.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Thank you.

KAREN PITTMAN: Thank you.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: All / we're going to dive / because we're kicking off the day with a compelling conversation. And I know Joanna brought the energy here. We're going to bring some of the depth and anguish.

And like many of the women here today, I have faced my own career battles and battles with professional pain over the years. So this topic hits close to home. You both have been part of successful, brilliant shows that we all love. Right? We all love them? Yes. And that have made a powerful impact with stories centered on women's experiences.

And these narratives, they just don't delve into the complicated dynamics of being women, because we all know that being a woman is tough enough, but they also tackle what it's like to be a professional working woman. That's navigating high intensity, high pressure jobs in fast paced relentless environments that have high stakes and also big personalities. What's it like for you? What's it like to play these complicated roles?

J. SMITH CAMERON: Well, first of all, it's fun.

[LAUGHTER]

It's fun to play--

KAREN PITTMAN: That's good to hear.

J. SMITH CAMERON: --a character with a lot of power and a lot of chutzpah. That's fun. Just shut me up when you want to jump in. But I was going to say--

KAREN PITTMAN: I'm not shutting you up. You're doing great.

J. SMITH CAMERON: The thing that always-- that I always say first in this topic is that my character was supposed to be a guy. Geri was a male character.

KAREN PITTMAN: OK.

J. SMITH CAMERON: And they decided to audition some women just sort of as a fluke. And then I couldn't come to the callback for personal reasons. I was out of town. I couldn't come. And by some miracle I got the part. And then it was-- but it had never really been written-- it hadn't been written as a woman. It had been written-- so it was kind of an interesting thing to be a woman, but being given the dialogue, basically, of a man.

So I would have this kind of fun split personality of being one of the guys and taking everything on the chin, at the same time, just wincing when they'd say something gross or, like, vulgar to me and inappropriate. Like there'd be like, ugh, yes, and? You know? That was really fun energy to my part, I thought. That just was a casting bold choice that they made.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: But it wasn't an original choice.

J. SMITH CAMERON: It wasn't originally.

KAREN PITTMAN: And you did that so perfectly. Anytime anything would say something-- anyone would say something to Geri, you would always see her feel it and then respond. Do you know what I mean? Similarly, on my show, Mia Jordan was an amalgam of a couple of characters. She was a man and a woman.

A woman who had had a relationship with-- a workplace relationship with one of the characters on the show. But then also, they had a character who was a producer and they just put both-- a male character as a producer. And so they put both of those characters together, very interestingly.

And like your character, Mia acts, as many of us do as women, in kind of masculine ways. She's got very strong masculine tendencies. But on the inside, you can feel her fragility, her femininity. And that's represented in her emotional landscape. So I think it-- I feel like both of these-- because I watch "Succession" religiously.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yes.

KAREN PITTMAN: I am so mad they're not having a season five. As if I worked on the show, I'm mad that they're not having a season five. But I think quite interestingly, our characters represent women who are-- we are in this place in the culture. Right? Where our mothers made a lot of sacrifices so we could be out in the workplace doing what we're doing, following our ambition, wherever it's going to take us, without necessarily knowing how to do it, what the template is. Right? In some ways. And so I feel like both of these women represent that.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yes. Where they have to sort of face combat as a man, and also take it from fellow women.

KAREN PITTMAN: Right.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Who are also adapting that same warlike stance.

KAREN PITTMAN: Yeah.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Shiv is really rough on Geri. Multiple female characters are--

KAREN PITTMAN: Huge egos, yeah, on "The Morning Show".

J. SMITH CAMERON: And power struggles.

KAREN PITTMAN: And not-- exactly. Not necessarily on the same team. Right?

J. SMITH CAMERON: Right.

KAREN PITTMAN: Right. Yeah.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: We just heard about what it's like to be on the same team. And you're not playing on the same team, often. And your characters have it. And you've just said it-- I was just going to call you Geri. Goodness. This is how tied I am to their characters.

But your characters are facing head on the many systems and barriers that get in the way of gender parity. And some of them are going to be discussing today. And I'm going to start listing some of them. Toxic work environments, silence culture, pay inequity and financial, insecurity sexual misconduct, ageism, sexism, racism, power dynamics, micro and macro aggressions, retaliation, psychological safety, care giving, burnout, mental health. I mean, dios mio, I could go on. It's just so, so many.

That doesn't even cover everything. And I think both of you, and the conversations that we were having backstage, both of you speak to the storytelling and the writing as so critical. But I think a lot of what you imbue in your characters is really what makes this come alive to all of us.

And what-- I know for me, there are moments that would just stop me in my tracks. Like, I could-- I would hold my breath as I've been watching many of your monologues and responses. When people stop you in the street, do they talk to you about these topics? Do they tell you, thank you, I've lived your story.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yeah. I get a lot of that, and a lot of young women being really impressed with Geri. And I'm like, well, she's not actually a great person.

[LAUGHTER]

Like, I think everyone else, somehow my character came off as more moral. And my--

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: We'll ignore the--

J. SMITH CAMERON: --final thought about that, it wasn't that she was more moral, but that she actually was the only one who believed in the rule of law. And it's why they needed her so badly. She kept kind of finessing them out of the rapids. Right?

So she did have a place where the answer was no. She would say no to Logan Roy. She'd be like, the feds are coming up. So get your shit together. You know? And that made her seem, compared to them, who were so horribly immoral, amoral characters, that I think that's what it was, a respect for the letter of the law.

KAREN PITTMAN: Yeah, I agree. I think Mia on "The Morning Show" appears to be noble. Right? In the same way that Geri does. But that's only because she adheres to rules.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yes.

KAREN PITTMAN: And they don't always apply to her. I mean, she was fucking Mitch Kessler or--

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yes.

KAREN PITTMAN: So there was that. So, Yeah. I mean-- you asked a question though. Before I talked--

[LAUGHTER]

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Do people stop you and tell you, I've lived that story.

KAREN PITTMAN: Yes. Yes, Yes, Yes, they do. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I also think because it's-- it's just this in the early 21st century conversation about what it is for women of color to be in the workplace and moving this far forward. Like, we weren't having this conversation on "The Jeffersons", or "Sanford and Son", or "Good Times", or-- who else? "Julia". These weren't conversations we were having.

And suddenly there's "How To Get Away With Murder?". There's "Scandal". There's dramas that depict women of color far out in the workplace doing well, making money, and completely dealing with all of the things that they deal with. So, yeah.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: So to what do you attribute that shift in storytelling? These stories about women in the workplace, women across cultures and races, and women who are playing strong characters, women whose stories-- even though originally it seems for both of you the story wasn't centered on a woman.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Right.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Because you played it, it was.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Right.

KAREN PITTMAN: Well, I attribute it-- we talked about this before the circle. I attribute it-- in 2020, when George Floyd died, there was a lot of reckoning that we did as a global community. People were protesting in Germany and here. And it wasn't just the conversation around Black lives, it was about all of us. But very specifically about police brutality as it was affecting Black people.

And so as a culture, I feel like Hollywood responded and started to deal with that. And then, three years later, it was kind of back to the same thing. And for me as an African-American artist, it was like the second death of George Floyd in many ways. Like, he died again. I was like, oh, OK, so this is-- we're back to this.

So I think in many ways, the evolution of how these characters of color have come to life in the last few years, I think have to do with a lot of cultural reckoning about how we see people of color, and the desire and the need for us to reflect back as we make demands as audiences and as people in this community.

J. SMITH CAMERON: The demands of the audience. This is something interesting to talk about.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yeah.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yeah. I mean, I want to--

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Let's talk about that, please.

KAREN PITTMAN: Go ahead.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Well, I don't think you're done.

KAREN PITTMAN: No, no, no. No. Go ahead.

J. SMITH CAMERON: No. I was just thinking, when you asked that-- you raised that backstage, I think one other minority thing that has been suppressed, and of late-- when I say of late, I mean over the past decade, gradually-- was actually creativity was in a minority. Like, the big studios wanted just a successful show to be morphed into another show, another show, another show.

And it was-- suddenly, there was so much content that there could be all these niche shows. And with that came interesting writers, and interesting story lines, and open to all different kinds of women, imperfect women. Women-- one of the biggest problems in writing for women has been either that they've been horrible dragon ladies or saints.

And all of a sudden there's every kind of person, like there are in the world. So there was in-- another minority in Hollywood is creative writing. It's not-- it needs to be supported too.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Right. Right.

J. SMITH CAMERON: You know? And now after the strikes, we're kind of getting some push back. People want safe TV shows. I don't know if there's going to be our shows back anytime soon. You know? But, hopefully, it will win out again. Because the work that the audience has to do to track a show like "Succession"-- I only say "Succession" because I know that show so much better than your show, obviously.

But you have to pay attention. And sometimes you have to rewind and be like, what was that whispering about? Do you think-- do you think he meant-- do you think they're in cahoots? Like, lots of homework that-- the audience had to lean forward and pay attention. And I believe people like that.

There's a place in television for vegging out. And people all know the value of that. We all like a funny cartoon or show, or a funny fun movie. But I think that in this world today, this digital world we live in now, that smart TV, and TV that makes you think, and makes you-- moral conundrum stories, that there's not an obvious path of what's right or wrong to do, I think that kind of work being asked of the audience is really-- like, was catching on like fire.

But I don't know that the big, big studio bosses think that way. They still think in terms of, I don't know, like very big-- I don't know how they think.

KAREN PITTMAN: Well, I think that's also because-- I think that's because we have-- and we talked about this-- we've gone to our separate places. Right? It's hard to build-- one of the places where we build coalition, everybody sits around and talks, is when you get to the water cooler and everybody wants to talk about "Yellowstone". Do you know-- everyone wants to talk about "Succession". That's where we all come together.

And I think that there's not enough TV programming like that. But when you get a show like that, it typically is because there is an extraordinary creative mind behind it. And that's not necessarily fostered in the studio system.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: And it's-- last night we heard Tobin and Kristen talk about teamwork. And I think about it in terms of your work as an ensemble cast, as offering support and solidarity to each other. Everyone knowing what part they play, and playing it not just for themselves, but for others. And, Karen, you have worked in some of the most exciting productions that have been led by women, with diverse female storytelling, and leadership, and stories. What has that been like?

KAREN PITTMAN: It's been hard.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Hard how? Nobody laughed at that one, but I was like-- I'm like-- I'm like, I think this is--

KAREN PITTMAN: It's hard. Because the system is broken. Right? And people unwittingly hold up a broken system. They don't think they are. Right?

So you have to really push your allies. You really do have to talk to people about what advocacy looks like. It looks like pay equity. In my show, it looks like story equity.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yes.

KAREN PITTMAN: Some of my peers who have worked on shows have talked about, oh, that show is the patriarchy just with skirts on. Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yeah.

KAREN PITTMAN: So, I mean, we have to-- she said, yes.

J. SMITH CAMERON: That was a long yes.

KAREN PITTMAN: Yes. So there are-- you do have to constantly be in the conversation about, what is it like to-- this work of being a person of color, or a woman of color in a very diverse environment can sometimes be an invisible hand on the scale of equality. And it's hard.

It's hard to be that one person that stays in there instead of-- because a lot of people of color feel like, I'll just go do my own thing. Fuck this shit. I'll go back over here and make my own TV show, and deuces. Do you know what I mean? But some of us decide, no, because if I leave--

J. SMITH CAMERON: Just think what will happen.

KAREN PITTMAN: What's going to happen if I go?

J. SMITH CAMERON: The grass is going to grow over all the hard work.

KAREN PITTMAN: It's all over the hard work that other people have done before me. Right? And so, it's not, you walk in there, and everybody's-- and we're all holding hands, and we're singing kumbaya. We're not singing kumbaya. We are in conversation. It's a show.

So there's-- the chemistry has to be-- and sometimes that looks like, yes, this, and no, that, and I need that hairdresser, and, listen to me, I'm not going to do that. And that kind of-- those conversations-- and real talk, but that is what makes the shows that I work on so powerful, is that people are opinionated, they have very strong voices, and they speak up.

And it's not just about speaking up with, I'm telling-- it's very much, psst, psst, I want to say-- it doesn't have to be a big voice. It can be a whisper. You can just be like [CLEARING THROAT] excuse me. You know, it doesn't have to be-- you don't have to be Shirley Chisholm to make a-- do you know what I mean?

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: So I love that piece on speaking up.

KAREN PITTMAN: Yeah.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Because sometimes we pay a price for speaking up.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yeah.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: When is that price too high? When is that toll too painful for you to pay? Have you experienced that? And this is something that you experience--

J. SMITH CAMERON: You're asking me personally? Not the story.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Not the story. You, personally. You can talk about Geri too. Whichever one you want to embody right now.

J. SMITH CAMERON: I don't know. I mean, OK, I'm-- this is something I've not thought through myself. So just bear with me. But when it was introduced to me that they'd come up with this idea for Roman and Geri to get involved, first I was like, why? Why? I was immediately suspicious of it. Like, what's in it for Geri? Like--

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Great question. Great question.

J. SMITH CAMERON: He was like, well, he's a Roy. And I was like, yeah, so is Logan a Roy and she's been working for him for decades. I think she's wary of the fucking Roy's. Excuse my French. And also, he's appealing, but he's kind of an idiot Savant without the Savant.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Right.

J. SMITH CAMERON: You know?

[LAUGHTER]

J. SMITH CAMERON: And she's smart. She's smart. And I think she would be-- but she might be amused. And I think immediately when it happened, that the first scenes where that was unfolding were so clever because you get to see Geri playing catch up. Like, what? What's going-- what? What does he mean? Is he-- he's jerking off on the other end of the phone. You know?

Like, and-- so-- but I remember at first with Jesse being like, well, I think she would be far too careful to actually have an affair with him. So they adopted that story line, and then there was less story for me to play.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Oh, interesting.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Do you see what I mean? Because it could only go so far. And because of the clever female writers-- I don't know that they're only the female writers standing up for Geri, but-- like, Jesse told me-- or was it Jesse told me, or another writer told me, that he thought that in the cruelty of that world, the minute those dick pics came to light, Geri would have been fired.

KAREN PITTMAN: Yes.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Geri would have been fired with the way they tried to blame the clever work she'd done on saving them. Like, trying to use that on her. And--

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: That's how--

J. SMITH CAMERON: They were like, well, no, you can't-- you can't fire her. So, again, it was like how the tangled ups and downs between their emotional connection. Because by that time, after playing that relationship for a while, I felt like Roman had gotten under her skin a little bit.

Because she's a human being. She's not just a military tank that you point in a direction and she goes. You know? She's after all-- after all, she's a little human, which just belies her.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: It was not-- it was not just your voice that you were exerting, it was, as you said, it was the writers in the room.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Yes.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Really honoring the role and the character. Well, I mean-- go ahead please,

KAREN PITTMAN: I want to say this too. I think the question about, when does it go too far?

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Please.

KAREN PITTMAN: I think I haven't hit that yet, is what I want to say.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: OK.

KAREN PITTMAN: I think there's just-- we were looking at the glass half full or the glass half empty, and I'm a half full person. If you're an artist in the world, you kind of have a genuine optimism in humanity. Otherwise, what are-- what are you reflecting back?

J. SMITH CAMERON: That's right.

KAREN PITTMAN: The fact that human beings want to survive as a species? That we want to thrive? And I've not yet hit my limit of, when is too much-- when have I gotten too much. But I will tell you that communities like this, rooms like this, and the support that I get from women is so significant.

It really is about building a community of women. And now I'm calling J my friend, because we've been up here on this couch. She's now my community.

J. SMITH CAMERON: We feel we're all friends now.

KAREN PITTMAN: It's a community of women that will keep us all going. So that we don't hit that.

J. SMITH CAMERON: And these rooms.

KAREN PITTMAN: And these rooms.

J. SMITH CAMERON: These rooms and these conversations.

DAISY AUGER-DOMINGUEZ: Yeah. This is it. This is where it starts. Alison told us last night. This is where it begins. This is the collaboration. This is the teamwork. This is the ensemble cast that drives that change.

OK, I can talk to both of you all day long, fact or fiction, but we're going to have to go because there's a lot of other topics that are going to touch on these same themes. But thank you so much.

KAREN PITTMAN: Thank you, Daisy.

J. SMITH CAMERON: Thank you.

KAREN PITTMAN: Thank you, guys. Thank you.

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