Post Office Inquiry – live: Paula Vennells booed over calling postmasters ‘inadequate’ in bombshell email

Ex-Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells was booed by the public gallery has been accused of talking “absolute rubbish” after she broke down in tears once again at the Horizon inquiry to insist that she loved the company and had “worked to the best of my ability” over the scandal.

Bringing to a close three days of bruising testimony – riddled with long pauses and insistences by Ms Vennells that she could not recall details asked of her – boos rang out in the gallery as the inquiry was shown a 2014 email by Paula Vennells congratulating Post Office comms director for a recent One Show appearance.

In the email, Ms Vennells claimed the segment made subpostmasters appear “inadequate” and said she was “more bored than outraged” hearing their claims of mistreatment and wrongful prosecution. She added that now-acquitted subpostmaster Jo Hamilton “lacked passion and admitted false accounting on TV”.

Insisting to the inquiry that she was “just hugely sorry” over the “terrible” email, she was challenged by barrister Tim Moloney KC: “Is it in fact that they were triumphalist remarks and you regret them now because you’re here?”

Key Points

• Paula Vennells booed over bombshell email calling postmasters ‘inadequate'

• Ex-Post Office CEO accused of talking ‘absolute rubbish’ after breaking down in tears

• ‘I did my very best throughout,’ Vennells insists in third day of testimony

• Parliament passes law to exonerate hundreds of subpostmasters

• Paula Vennells accused of ‘crocodile tears’ by union

Subpostmaster ‘disappointed’ by Vennells testimony

16:25 , Andy Gregory

Former subpostmaster Keith Bell – who was falsely convicted of false accounting over a £3,000 shortfall – said he was “disappointed” by Paula Vennells’ responses to the inquiry.

“She’s had the opportunity to truthfully answer the questions. The facts were there, she can’t deny them,” he told Sky News.

“It was her job to understand and to act on the facts and not go down the route she decided to take.”

‘No coming back’: Reactions to 2014 Paula Vennells email

15:57 , Andy Gregory

Here are some more reactions to Paula Vennells’s 2014 email, which drew boos from the gallery when it was shown.

Law Society Gazette deputy news editor John Hyde suggests “there’s no coming back from that”.

Jamie Robertson of Channel 4 noted it was “a very bad moment” for the former chief executive.

And Tom Hamilton of The Times pointed out that subpostmistress Jo Hamilton was watching on as barrister Tim Moloney challenged Ms Vennells over the claims made about her in the email.

Watch: Paula Vennells accused of talking ‘absolute rubbish’ as she cries again at Horizon inquiry

15:43 , Andy Gregory

Subpostmistress attacked by Vennells in 2014 email doubts sincerity of her apology

15:31 , Andy Gregory

Former subpostmistress Jo Hamilton said she doubts the sincerity of Paula Vennells’s apology to her.

Ms Vennells apologised to Ms Hamilton directly after an email the former Post Office boss wrote was read out at the Horizon inquiry in which she said the subpostmistress “lacked passion and admitted false accounting on TV” – which drew boos from the gallery when it was shown.

After the hearing, Ms Hamilton said: “I accept anyone’s apology but whether she means it or not is another matter. I’m not sure.”

Asked if it meant something to hear Ms Vennells apologise, she said: “Not really, no. I think people only say sorry, well some people say sorry and mean it, but I don’t know whether it was meant or not. I’m in two minds as to whether it was genuine or that she was so publicly ashamed.”

Paula Vennells finishes giving evidence

15:21 , Andy Gregory

Proceedings have now finished.

The inquiry’s chair Sir Wyn Williams concluded that he was grateful to Paula Vennells for her very long witness statement and for giving evidence this week.

Paula Vennells booed over ‘triumphalist’ email criticising subpostmasters

15:17 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been booed by some in the gallery as an email was shown in which she said postmasters had appeared “inadequate” and “boring” during a TV appearance in 2014.

Pressed by Tim Moloney KC over her “triumphalist” email (see post below for details), Ms Vennells said there was “simply no excuse” for what she had written and that she had apologised to subpostmaster Jo Hamilton.

“Is it in fact that they were triumphalist remarks and you regret them now because you’re here?” he pressed.

She said: “I completely agree, that the pressure we were under at the time to try to manage what we genuinely felt was an imbalance of media coverage and representation about what was happening in the Post Office, and I think under pressure ... I have no excuse for what I wrote.

“Other than, as I say, I was under pressure, and I think I was relieved that the programme hadn’t been perhaps as bad or as hard-hitting as I’d expected it to be. And I’m just hugely sorry – it was a terrible thing to write.

She added: “I was perhaps very relieved ... There is simply no excuse because, it wouldn’t matter, would it, how bad it had been – because we were wrong.”

Ms Vennells denied that this really reflected the behind-closed-doors attitude towards postmasters.

Paula Vennells 2014 email describes ‘boredom’ watching subpostmasters on TV

15:10 , Andy Gregory

Following her denunciation of Post Office comms director Mark Davies’ claim in 2014 that subpostmasters “faced lifestyle difficulties”, Paula Vennells has been shown an email she sent eight days later congratulating him for “achieving a balance of reporting beyond anything I could have hoped for”.

The email sent by Ms Vennells about a One Show broadcast said: “They emphasised everything we have done and came across as ... fact! Very good.”

She claimed the rest of the show was “hype and human interest” and said she “was more bored than outraged” watching it. She added that now-acquitted subpostmaster Jo Hamilton “lacked passion and admitted false accounting on TV”, and claimed the segment made postmasters look “inadequate”.

Paula Vennells denounces colleagues’ claim subpostmasters faced ‘lifestyle difficulties’

14:59 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells is being asked about Post Office comms director suggesting in 2014 on BBC Radio 4 that subpostmasters had “faced lifestyle difficulties”.

Asked what she thought of these remarks, Ms Vennells said: “I remember listening to it and thinking ‘oh Mark’. As he said here, I don’t think he ever intended that word to come out.”

She accepts it was extremely insensitive. By that time, one subpostmaster had served an 18-month prison sentence while a mother to teenagers. She has subsequently had her conviction quashed. Another longserving local councillor had spent his 60th birthday behind bars.

Tim Moloney KC said: “They’d all been subject to public censure and humiliation, and you’ve had a taste of that now Ms Vennells, haven’t you, in recent times. And it’s not very nice, is it? And if somebody were to say to you, Paula, you appear to have a bit of a lifestyle difficulty at the moment, might you consider that could be viewed as slightly ironic or sarcastic.”

Ms Vennells said: “It was just completely the wrong word.”

Asked to explain why she would never have said that herself, Ms Vennells said: “For the reason that I’m here today. Because people’s lives have been absolutely devastated.”

Challenged that it was “not simply reflecting the dismissive attitude Post Office had” towards subpostmasters, Ms Vennells said: “I don’t believe so. I can understand why people would think that, and I regret hugely that we are where we are today.”

She denied fostering that dismissive attitude.

Vennells concedes she kept close eye on media coverage after saying she did not remember damaging revelations

14:54 , Andy Gregory

Barrister Tim Moloney KC is now asking Paula Vennells about media coverage in 2014.

She tells the inquiry she can’t recall whether there was a degree of damaging revelations about Horizon starting to emerge, saying: “I’ll take your word for that, I’m sorry, I can’t recall the detail now.”

Mr Moloney states that “campaigning postmasters were appearing on radio and television to describe their experiences at the hands of the Post Office, and about how their lives had been ruined and Horizon was at the root of their problems”.

Ms Vennells then accepts that she told the inquiry this week that she had been working closely with the Post Office’s comms director Mark Davies and kept a close eye on how the Post Office was being portrayed on TV and radio.

Paula Vennells listed removing reference to Horizon in Royal Mail prospectus a key annual achievement

14:45 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been shown a document compiling her key achievements over the previous 12 months in her role.

One point noted within the document was Ms Vennells’ having “intervened personally” to change the wording in the Royal Mail flotation prospectus in relation to the Horizon investigation”.

Ms Vennells said it was “one of a list of areas that I worked on”.

Challenged that she “remembered it well enough to cite it as a key achievement in your review of your year in 2013/14”, she said: “That was at the time. It’s now that I haven’t remembered it.”

She said she imagines the reason she had shared this in her report to the Post Office chair because it was considered inappropriate for that statement on the Post Office IT system to be listed under a section in the Royal Mail prospectus, when at this stage “we believed there weren’t” problems with Horizon and “was not seen to be something helpful because it could have been picked up and misinterpreted”.

2011 email appears to contradict Paula Vennells’ recollection to inquiry

14:39 , Andy Gregory

Barrister Tim Moloney has made good on his suggestion that he may be able to provide evidence contrasting with Paula Vennells’ recollections.

Ms Vennells was shown an email sent to her shortly after the legal advice circulated to Post Office staff in 2011, in which the subject line had been changed to read “legally privileged and confidential” – just as the note had advised in a bid to keep criticism of the Post Office in correspondence legally privileged.

Ms Vennells can be seen discussing the legal note in that email chain, having told the inquiry minutes earlier that she did not believe she had seen it.

Post Office staff given advice on how to retain legal privilege over documents, inquiry told

14:17 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry is being shown communication circulated within the Post Office warning employees to be careful when creating documents that could be called upon as evidence in litigation threatened by four ex-subpostmasters in 2011.

The email states that it will be possible in some circumstances to claim legal privilege over such documents, advising a number of steps advising how best to ensure this will be possible.

Asked whether she saw this advice, Paula Vennells said: “I don’t believe I did – unless you can take me to something that shows that.”

Barrister Tim Moloney says: “I might be able to.”

Paula Vennells asked about letters before claim received by ex-subpostmasters

14:11 , Andy Gregory

Proceedings are back under way after a break for lunch, with barrister Tim Moloney KC now questioning Paula Vennells.

Letters before claim from four former subpostmasters received in August 2011 by the Post Office were perceived as a potential class action and could have cost the company a lot of money and been highly damaging reputationally, Ms Vennells agreed.

Subpostmaster reacts to Vennells’ testimony

13:35 , Andy Gregory

Former subpostmaster Lee Castleton said he wishes Paula Vennells would have recognised a decade ago that what happened to him and his Post Office colleagues was “unforgivable”.

The former Post Office chief executive admitted the business’ treatment of Mr Castleton, who was made bankrupt after he lost his legal battle with the company, was “unforgivable”, on her third day of her evidence to the Horizon IT inquiry.

Asked how he felt about her comments, Mr Castleton told the PA news agency during a break from the hearing: “It’s a different world for me now. It’s 20 years on and we have had to fight so hard.

“I just wish she would have recognised that in 2013 – it would have made such a difference to a lot of people. It would have been so much better for everybody had the Post Office not done what they had done. There have been so many people punished for nothing.”

Asked if he thought Ms Vennells’ comments on his case had been forced, he said: “Kind of. If I ever believed that it was just about me, me personally, then I probably wouldn’t be here today. But I think it has been forced and we have had to fight every step of the way, and it never needed to be like this.”

Mr Castleton said his overwhelming feeling over the course of Ms Vennells’ evidence has been sadness, adding: “This never needed to happen to anybody.”

13:11 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry has now broken for lunch, and is due to resume at 2pm.

Vennells says ‘very appropriate’ for Post Office to be stripped of specialist agency status in Scotland

13:11 , Andy Gregory

The lawyer acting on behalf of wrongfully convicted Scottish subposmaster Susan Sinclair has asked Paula Vennells how she had received statements by Scotland’s lord advocate to the Scottish Parliament last week “that the Post Office is no longer trusted and has been stripped of its role as a specialist agency in Scotland”.

After asking for the question to be repeated, Ms Vennells said: “I think that’s a very appropriate response.”

Paula Vennells asked whether she questioned safety of Post Office convictions

13:07 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells is now being quizzed by Christie Allan, who represents Susan Sinclair, the first subpostmistress in Scotland to successfully appeal her wrongful prosecution – which happened only last September.

Ms Allan has begun by asking how, given Ms Vennells’ claims that she always sought to be questioning in her approach – alongside accounts by subpostmasters, the findings of Second Sight, discovery of bugs in Horizon and revelations about Fujitsu witness Gareth Jenkins – to what extent she questioned the safety of convictions including those in Scotlan.

Ms Vennells replied: “All of the subpostmasters who raised cases were admitted into the scheme, if their applications were considered there was a case to do that. There was no intention to exclude anybody. So my understanding – and I’m very sorry because I wouldn’t have known the individual cases, if there were Scottish cases in those – I am very sorry that it took so long for that to be resolved.”

But she denied being reassured that there “was an extra layer of protection in Scottish prosecutions” because of how the Scottish legal system works, saying: “I had no knowledge of that and I don’t believe I asked enough questions.”

Paula Vennells questioned by union’s lawyers

12:53 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells is now being asked questions by Catriona Watt, who is representing the National Federation of SubPostmasters (NFSP), a group which campaigner Alan Bates described to the inquiry in April as “absolutely useless”.

She challenges that Horizon being “robust” was a mantra repeated again and again, “until it became corporate truth”.

Ms Vennells replied: “I and many colleagues in the Post Office took comfort from the fact that senior officials in the NFSP were saying that kind of thing. We see many examples of where words are picked up across time and I don’t know where ‘robust’ came from originally. It was certainly used very regularly by the Post Office.”

“We took it as very genuine, useful experience that the NFSP – made up as you know of people who ran Post Offices on a daily basis – found the system to be robust.”

Paula Vennells denies setting culture of ‘eliminating’ subpostmasters

12:47 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry has been shown a strategy advice document which suggests “forcing” subpostmasters “into a collective position where they will either abandon the claims or seek a reasonable settlement”.

Barrister Sam Stein KC said: “That happened under your leadership, Ms Vennells, all of it did. You set the tone, didn’t you, Ms Vennells, and the tone was ‘let’s eliminate them, let’s get rid of these bugs in the system, the subpostmasters – that’s what you set in place, wasn’t it Ms Vennells?’”

After Ms Vennells asked again: “Is that a question because I’d like to answer it”, Mr Stein replied: “Yes, the ‘wasn’t it, Ms Vennells?’ was the question, I think you may have noticed.”

After another long pause, Ms Vennells said: “I did not set a culture like that. I did not lead the litigation. I remember reading this document – well actually I don’t know if I saw this particular document, because I was not personally involved in the litigation steering committee, there was a board subcommittee of which I was one member. I had two conversations with Jane MacLeod ... and I’m disappointed she can’t come and give evidence to the inquiry because I think it is important that the inquiry understands more around the approach to the group litigation.”

Vennells says she learned postmasters had to pay back shortfalls in 2013

12:34 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has said she became aware of the fact that postmasters were expected to pay for any shortfalls in their accounts, including sums of tens of thousands of pounds.

Asked when she first became aware of this, she said she was running an organisation of 60,000 people.

But pressed again, after a very long pause, she said: “I imagine when the team working on the complaints and mediation scheme were looking at the detail of some of those cases. And I knew about Mrs Misra’s case, which was a huge amount of money. I can’t remember other examples, but I’m sure there were some.”

Chair intervenes to ask about whereabouts of former Post Office IT director

12:26 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry’s chair Sir Wyn Williams has intervened to ask whether Paula Vennells has had any recent contact with former Post Office IT director Mike Young.

Sir Wyn said: “It’s just that the inquiry to date has been unable to trace Mr Young, and so I was seeing if Ms Vennells could help us.”

Ms Vennells said: “No, I’m sorry. I had wondered why he hadn’t been here.”

Sir Wyn Williams has also issued a statement regarding former Post Office general counsel Jane MacLeod, confirming that she has been removed from the timetable as she “will not co-operate with the Inquiry by providing oral evidence”.

Watch: Paula Vennells accused of talking 'absolute rubbish' as she cries again at Horizon inquiry

12:22 , Andy Gregory

Vennells challenged to name those who she trusted ‘too much'

12:12 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been challenged to name which individuals she blames and who she trusted too much.

After Ms Vennells suggested she had done this previously, Barrister Sam Stein KC said: “No, do it again. Tell us who you think that you shouldn’t have trusted because they let you down. Give us the names. Please.”

She said: “I will do that but I’d also like to say that, at the time I trusted the people who gave me the information, so on the IT side, Lesley Sewell and Mike Young, and there were two other IT directors, but at the times we’re talking about it was Mike Young and Lesley Sewell.

And on the legal side the general counsels, Susan Crichton and Chris Aujard, and later Jane MacLeod. And those people I had worked with on numbers of other very seriously important projects. They had never let me down. And I’m not sure at what stage you start to not trust individuals with whom you have previously.

“And I think one of the big mistakes which I mentioned on day one here is that we did not have sufficient oversight, particulaly around two very technical functions, because there is a risk that if you rely on – as I did and my board and group executive colleagues did – we relied on one or two key individuals.

“And that puts a burden on those individuals. And an organisation shouldn’t do that. We should have had better scrutiny around the board table in terms of IT and legal.”

Vennells says she can’t recall if she questioned discovery of bugs in Horizon

12:05 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has insisted she could not recall whether she questioned why she had not been told earlier about Horizon bugs upon finding out about them.

Barrister Sam Stein KC said: “The only way to understand your evidence – if you’re saying you care about subpostmasters, if you say you cared deeply about the system, a sensible intelligent CEO would say ‘what’s going on?

“Why did I not get told there were bugs in the system, that they existed, and that they were the mismatch bug, suspense bug, calendar square, all of that?’”

Ms Vennells said: “In terms of the bug that arose when I was CEO, the local suspense bug, as I said yesterday, I had a conversation with Alwen Lyons when I said ‘I want to take leadership on this and I want to demonstrate that we will handle these things properly. However the two previous bugs had been handled was not something for me to deal with. I was reassured that they had been sorted out as they needed to be.”

Paula Vennells breaks down in tears when insisting ‘I loved the Post Office'

11:54 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has broken down in tears again as she insisted “I love the Post Office” – but was rebuked by barrister Sam Stein KC that her claims were “absolute rubbish”.

“You failed to ask the right questions, you couldn’t be bothered, could you Ms Vennells. The risk was too great, looking under that rock you’re going to find a problem. It’s going to devastate the Post Office, going to ruin it, and you couldn’t let that happen,” challenged the subpostmasters’ barrister Mr Stein.

Ms Vennells began to reply that “I loved the Post Office, I gave it...” before tearing up and pausing for nearly 30 seconds until continuing: “I worked as hard as I possibly could to deliver the best Post Office for the UK. It would have been wonderful to have 30,000 Post Office branches. That would have been the best outcome ever – to have had more Post Offices in more communities.

“What I failed to do and I have made this clear previously, is I did not recognise – and it’s been discussed across the inquiry – the imbalance of power between the institution and the individual, and I let these people down. I am very aware of that.

“We should have had better governance in place, we should have had better data reporting in place which meant that we could see what was happening to individual postmasters and to the system. That was not the case.

“At no time did I put the Post Office over the cases that were brought forwards. I worked as hard as I could and to the best of my ability and I am very sorry that I was not able to find out what the inquiry has found out. I don’t know today how much wasn’t told to me. I do know information that I didn’t get.”

Mr Stein KC gives this short shrift, however, saying: “Ms Vennells that’s absolute rubbish isn’t it? Under your leadership, with your sidekick Ms van den Bogerd, you took on the co-litigants in the High Court, fighting tooth and nail, allowing counsel on behalf of the Post Office to cross-examine the litigants on the basis that the losses were their fault due to incompetence or dishonesty.

“That’s what happened under your leadership. Ms Vennells, that’s what you allowed to happen under your leadership.”

Vennells insists she still had confidence in Horizon in 2013

11:42 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has insisted she still had confidence in Horizon despite accepting that she knew Fujitsu's former chief IT architect Gareth Jenkins was no longer deemed reliable as an expert witness in Post Office prosecutions about Horizon.

“By 2012, you had learned for the first time that the Post Office actually took people to court” and by 2013 “that the expert being used to support those prosecutions was no longer reliable”, said subpostmasters’ barrister Sam Stein KC.

“You also knew that there was a reputational and potentially financial risk to the Post Office that had to be discussed with the board arising from possible attempts to reopen past convictions. Do you agree when considering this entire collection of information that your world belief in the Horizon system had been shaken to the core?”

Ms Vennells replied: “My understanding around the bugs is that they had been fixed, that they affected a small number of Post Offices, that Mr Jenkins had had to be stood down because of that, and that the Post Office was no longer bringing prosecutions, and that it would look for an expert witness at a future stage.

“I was not aware – as I’ve said a number of times now – the elements around Mr Jenkins had caused the Post Office to breach its duties as a prosecutor, and I accept the other matters that you’ve explained.”

Challenged that each of these facts were “a direct attack on the very basic system that supported the Post Office”, Mr Stein insisted that “by the end of 2013 you could be in no doubt Ms Vennells that the Horizon system needed investigation, needed inquiry and review”.

She replied: “I absolutely wish we had done that. I still had confidence in the Horizon system from the fact it was working for the majority of people. I did not have the detail I have today, and had I had that, my view would have been very, very different.”

Vennells accused of dragging Post Office to profitability over the debris of postmasters’ lives

11:32 , Andy Gregory

Following a short break, subpostmasters’ barrister Sam Stein KC is now asking Paula Vennells about the Network Transformation Programme to improve the Post Office’s financial sustainability.

He begins by alleging that Ms Vennells “dragged the Post Office to profitibility over the debris of the lives of subpostmasters”.

She replied: “I said at the very beginning of giving my evidence that there are no words that can express the regret I feel for what happened to subpostmasters. I had an objective, it is right, as the chief executive of the company, to bring it – it wasn’t profitability, but commercial sustainability, so that it consumed less funding and subsidy from the government.”

Vennells told Post Office board chair ‘I have earned my keep’ over Horizon omission

11:14 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells sent an email to Post Office board chair Alice Perkins telling her “I have earned my keep”, the inquiry has been told.

Asked what she meant by this, Ms Vennells said that it “had taken some time” to remove a line from the 2013 prospectus about the Royal Mail flotation which warned about potential risks in the Post Office IT system, which Ms Vennells said she had done “because I didn’t believe that it was helpful in any way”.

Challenged by barrister Ed Henry that “you knew of the existence of bugs, errors, and defects and you’d already kept those out, hadn’t you?”, Ms Vennells said she was not involved in the prospectus until this “very last minute” intervention.

Horizon prosecution failure revelations would have been ‘devastating’ to Royal Mail privatisation, Vennells admits

11:03 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has told the Horizon IT inquiry that revelations about possible prosecution failures at the time of Royal Mail’s privatisation would have been “devastating”.

Edward Henry KC asked: “You had, on July 16 (2013), the board meeting where [former Post Office general counsel] Susan Crichton is sitting outside on the naughty step. You know that at that July 16 board meeting, the board was alarmed about potential claims against it, correct?”

Ms Vennels said: “Yes.”

Mr Henry continued: “How would revelations about possible prosecution failures at a time when Royal Mail was in charge of the Post Office have affected privatisation? It would have been devastating, wouldn’t it?”

Ms Vennells replied: “Yes it would, I’m sure.”

Vennells denies connection between Horizon response and Royal Mail privatisation plans

10:56 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has insisted that her response to the claims about Horizon errors had no connection to the privatisation of the Royal Mail.

Edward Henry KC claimed: “Let’s be clear. You were given the job I suggest, or it must have been uppermost in your mind: keep the lid on this. Because of course you wanted to please stakeholders. You wanted to please the board, government, Whitehall.

“I mean how else can we explain your intransigence throughout your tenure in relation to the concerns that were being brought to you about Horizon?”

After Ms Vennells once again asks him to repeat the question, he continued: “What I am suggesting to you is that you wanted to diffuse this because it was going to be immensely politically damaging both to the Post Office itself but also to the privatisation – and you were of course anxious to please BIS [the now defunct Department for Business, Innovation and Skills], weren’t you?”

Ms Vennells replied: “I had no role at all in relation to the privatisation, I had no conversations with BIS about the privatisation. My concerns at this stage were only about the Post Office ... I don’t believe I made any connection between this and the Royal Mail privatisation at all.”

Vennells remote access claim rejected as ‘la-la land'

10:47 , Andy Gregory

Subpostmasters’ barrister Edward Henry has challenged Paula Vennells that “this is la-la land” as the former Post Office chief executive said she wasn’t aware that Fujitsu had remote access to branch accounts on the Horizon system while the company’s lawyers Cartwright King did.

Ms Vennells said she was not aware that Cartwright King knew of Fujitsu’s remote access.

Chair interjects as Vennells challenged over remote access to Horizon system

10:44 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been challenged on the fact that “remote access – unauthorised tampering – was never resolved throughout the entire time of your tenure as managing director and as chief executive”.

Ms Vennells replied: “And the question is?”

Mr Henry continued: “Well, in other words, the disconnect between corporate communications, the outward face of the business, and the grubby internal reality.”

The former chief executive said: “I’m sorry, I want to be able to help. You’re making statements...” to which chair Sir Wyn Williams interjected: “Let me try, Ms Vennells. I think the point that’s being put to you is that throughout the period you were chief executive, let’s keep to that - it makes it simpler - the true extent of remote access was never satisfactorily resolved by the senior people at the Post Office.”

Ms Vennells said: “So when that is correct, the volume of interventions that were happening, as I understand it and I’ve only understood this since in terms of what is detailed in the Horizon judgement and the Project Bramble report which I’ve seen afterwards is that appears as though there were interventions on a fairly frequent basis, which as Mr Beer says yesterday was not known to me, and I believe the board and the group executive.

“I don’t know how widely wthin the Post Office that information was known but clearly it was happening.”

Paula Vennells denies being ‘politically adept'

10:31 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells was rejected the suggestion that she is “politically adept, saying: “I would suggest that wasn’t the case, this was my first job in a public sector organisation.”

But barrister Ed Henry KC said he found this surprising as she had later moved on to the Cabinet Office.

When Ms Vennells said she did not understand the connection, Mr Henry continued: “Your concerns were managing upwards. You were obsessed with the media, pleasing the stakeholders, the board, the government, Whitehall. Those were your priorities, weren’t they?”

Ms Vennells said these were “very important stakeholders” for the Post Office.

Inquiry chair intervenes after Paula Vennells interrupted mid-response

10:28 , Andy Gregory

In a sign of the intensity of the questioning being levelled at Paula Vennells, the inquiry’s chair Sir Wyn Williams has seen fit to intervene after the former chief executive was interrupted multiple times.

Sir Wyn told Ed Henry KC, who acts on behalf of subpostmasters: “I appreciate that you have a difficult task, but also the witness has a difficult task.

“So I’d ask you both, one to ask the question, one to complete the answer. And then we move on.”

Mr Henry apologised to Ms Vennells, and to Sir Wyn.

‘I did my very best,’ says Paula Vennells.

10:13 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has insisted she did her “very best” when chief executive but that she “did not set the agenda” and had “no reason not to take the advice” she was given by legal and IT experts on the Horizon scandal.

She said: “I was the chief executive. I did not set the agenda for the work of the scheme and the way the legal and IT parts of it worked. As I’ve said to the inquiry over the past two days, I’m not a lawyer, I didn’t have the expertise or the experience to lead on that. Nor did I on the IT side.

“I had to rely on those colleagues who were experts and I had no reason not to take the advice I was given. I accept I was chief executive and as chief executive you have ultimate accountability, and that is simply fact.

“You are not responsible for everything that happens underneath you. You have to rely on the advice of internal and external experts, and that is what I did. I was not working alone on this. I was surrounded by the board, by the group executive committee.

“I cannot think of any of the major decisions I took by myself in isolation of anybody. This was far too serious an undertaking for the Post Office – for everybody affected, for every single postmaster case, and my ambition was to get those through the scheme.

“I did my very best through this and it wasn’t good enough. And that is a regret I carry with me.”

Paula Vennells refuses to say she is responsible for own downfall

10:05 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has once again been questioned about her request to her husband for “less emotive” language than “bugs” to describe the flaws with Horizon.

Ms Vennells says: “I was concerned by the bugs”, to which Mr Henry interjects: “You did nothing.”

He alleged that Ms Vennells “did not heed the warning” that “these bugs could manifest themselves under unforeseen circumstances”, adding: “It was staring you in the face.”

The former chief executive said that “what I’ve said on this so far is all I knew at the time ... and I repeat again, we should have said ‘bugs’”.

Pressed that she has “no one to blame but yourself”, Ms Vennells continued: “Absolutely. Where I made mistakes and made the wrong calls, whether or not in those cases where I didn’t have information that’s more difficult, but where I had information and I made the wrong calls, yes of course.”

Put to her that she is “responsible for her own downfall”, Ms Vennells said she had lost all employment since the Court of Appeal judgement and that since that moment she has only worked on this inquiry, which has been “a full-time job” for the past year.

“I have avoided talking to the press, perhaps to my own detriment, because all the way through I have put this first.”

Vennells confronted over ‘preaching compassion but not practicing it'

09:59 , Andy Gregory

Things are off to a fiery start.

“You exercised power with no thought for the consequences of your actions despite those consequences staring you in the face,” says Ed Henry KC.

Ms Vennells discusses the mediation scheme, saying: “I believed we were doing the right things and clearly that was not always the case”, before conceding: “There are no words I can find today that will make the sorrow and what people have gone through any better.”

Mr Henry retorts: “That’s humbug. You preach compassion but you don’t practice it.” He notes that Lee Castleton was “closed out of the mediation process” because he was an “illustrious scalp” that could be used in the Group Litigation Order.

Ms Vennells says she was not personally involved in which cases were involved in the mediation scheme, but admits that what happened to Mr Castleton was “unforgivable”.

Paula Vennells admits she ‘didn’t always take the right path'

09:53 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry is under way once again.

“There were so many forks in the road, but you always took the wrong path, didn’t you?” Ed Henry KC begins by asking Paula Vennells, who admits: “The Post Office and I didn’t always take the right path, I’m very clear about that.”

Paula Vennells denies finding out about bugs in Horizon system was ‘world changing information'

09:37 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells did not accept yesterday that finding out there were bugs in the Horizon IT system was “world changing information”.

Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC said: “You tell us time and time again in your witness statement that up until May 2013 you had been told time and time again that there were no bugs in Horizon”, to which Ms Vennells replied: “Yes.”

Mr Beer asked: “Isn’t this world changing information for you?”

Ms Vennells accepted it was “information that changed” but later added, when asked the same question: “Sorry what I’m not getting across clearly enough was that this was important but I was reassured at the same time that these bugs had been dealt with.”

The barrister asked: “Is that reassurance anywhere in writing or is it one of these corridor conversations?”

Ms Vennells said: “I think it is in writing in the Second Sight interim report.”

Pictured: Paula Vennells arrives for third day of testimony

09:18 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has arrived at Aldwych House for her third and final day of testimony at the Post Office inquiry.

Members of the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance demonstrated outside the building on Friday morning, holding up a banner listing their demands for a full statutory inquiry, full recompense for the scandal’s victims, and for the individuals responsible to be identified and held to account.

Paula Vennells appears to have been ‘well drilled’ by legal team, subpostmaster suggests

09:02 , Andy Gregory

A former subpostmaster has said Paula Vennells appears to have been “very well drilled by her legal team” ahead of her inquiry testimony.

Former sub-postmaster Damian Owen told Sky News: “I think she’s been very well drilled by her legal team to not say anything, not remember anything.

“Even when she’s caught out in something that she might have said, doesn’t remember, but then again they produce a document to prove that she’s not only heard it but also signed that she’s read it, then she’ll just have a little pause or a cry and they know then that they have to move on because they are encroaching on the boundary of self-incrimination.”

Paula Vennells said all press should be ‘scoured for negative comment and refuted’

08:44 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells said it was a “goal” of hers that all press “should be scoured for negative comment and refuted” in an email she sent in 2011.

The Horizon inquiry heard she made the comments after she was notified about a Private Eye article on the Horizon IT system and criticism from subpostmasters.

In September 2011, Ms Vennells wrote: “We need to be front foot and counter anything that has a reputational impact. It’s a goal of mine that all press even local press (perhaps esp local press), should be scoured for negative comment and refuted.”

Giving evidence on Thursday, Ms Vennells said: “This was a general ambition of mine.

“The Post Office’s reputation and its brand was built every single day in Post Offices across the country by the people who worked so hard serving customers, many of whom were particularly vulnerable people, and so it was important to me that where the Post Office was misrepresented that that should be corrected, and especially at a local level because the local Post Offices were so important to people.”

Asked if that was her “general instruction” to the business to contest all and any negative comments, Ms Vennells said: “It was an ambition, well, only if they were inaccurate.”

“In the Post Office’s view?” counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked. “In the Post Office’s view, yes,” Ms Vennells said.

Vennells admits trying to ‘manipulate language’ to make Horizon bugs sound ‘non-emotive'

08:23 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has admitted attempting to “manipulate language” when she sought to make Horizon bugs sound “non-emotive”.

In a 2013 email to then-communications chief Mark Davies, Ms Vennells wrote: “My engineer/computer literate husband sent the following reply to the question: ‘What is a non-emotive word for computer bugs, glitches, defects that happen as a matter of course?

“Answer: Exception or anomaly. You can also say conditional Davies exception/anomaly which only manifests itself under unforeseen circumstances xx.”

Mr Davies replied: “I like exception v much.”

The former Post Office boss told the inquiry on Thursday that she should “not have engaged” with the conversation, describing her words as “wrong and stupid”. Inquiry counsel Julian Blake previously said the language was “absolutely Orwellian”.

Watch: Scoffs as Paula Vennells addresses ‘grossly improper’ email

08:04 , Andy Gregory

Vennells admits she ‘possibly’ hoped mediation scheme would ‘minimise compensation’ for postmasters

07:56 , Josh Payne, Ellie Ng, PA

Ex-Post Office boss Paula Vennells has admitted it was “possibly” her hope that a mediation scheme with subpostmasters would “minimise compensation”.

Ms Vennells accepted that an email she sent in August 2013 which said “the hope of mediation was to avoid or minimise compensation” sounded like subpostmasters were only welcome on the scheme if they agreed to receive a “pat on the head and a token payment”.

She told the inquiry on Thursday that she did not believe the mediation scheme, set up for people who believed they had been wrongly prosecuted by the Post Office, was for paying out “substantial figures”.

In an email from August 2013 to Post Office lawyer Susan Crichton, Ms Vennells wrote: “When we discussed this, the hope of mediation was to avoid or minimise compensation.”

After a lengthy discussion about the email, counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC said: “Why did you write an email that says ‘when we discussed this the hope of mediation was to avoid or minimise compensation’?”

Ms Vennells replied: “Because that was what we discussed.”

Mr Beer continued: “Right, good - that was easy then, wasn’t it?”

The former Post Office boss said: “But not as the purpose of doing it.”

Mr Beer then said: “A hope?”

Ms Vennells said: “Possibly, yes.”

Hundreds of subpostmasters will have names cleared on Friday, government says

07:47 , Andy Gregory

Hundreds of subpostmasters caught up in the Post Office Horizon scandal will have their names cleared on Friday, a minister has said – after parliament backed legislation to quash their convictions.

The Post Office (Horizon System) Offences Bill will receive royal assent on the final sitting day of parliament before it halts its business ahead of the upcoming general election.

Speaking as MPs accepted Lords amendments to the Bill, business minister Kevin Hollinrake told the Commons: “It’s an historic day because convictions will, as a result of this legislation, be overturned on royal assent – and with His Majesty’s agreement that means they will be overturned tomorrow.”

The Bill will quash convictions of theft, fraud, false accounting and other offences for subpostmasters who have suffered as a consequence of the Horizon scandal, and relevant cautions will be deleted from records – affecting those who were prosecuted from 1996 to 2018.

Those whose convictions are quashed will then be eligible to receive compensation payments from the Horizon Convictions Redress Scheme, which will be set up after the legislation is passed.

The Scottish Parliament will pass its own law to a similar effect north of the border, because of Scotland’s distinct legal system.

Vennells took advice not to review cases to avoid ‘front page news’

07:42 , Andy Gregory

Ex-Post Office boss Paula Vennells followed a “grossly improper” suggestion to not review all subpostmaster prosecutions after a PR adviser said it would end up “front page news”, the Horizon IT inquiry heard on Thursday.

The public gallery at the inquiry, made up of mainly subpostmasters, groaned loudly after Ms Vennells said she did not remember if she took the “advice of the PR guy” not to review past prosecutions.

The probe was shown an email exchange between Ms Vennells and then director of communications Mark Davies in July 2013 in which she said she would “take your steer” after he said looking at all past cases would be “in media terms… very high profile”.

Ms Vennells agreed with the suggestion by inquiry lead counsel Jason Beer KC that, had the Post Office acted to review all prosecutions of false accounting, it “may well have” avoided the “lost decade” until miscarriages of justice involving subpostmasters were discovered.

Josh Payne has the full report:

Vennells took advice not to review cases to avoid ‘front page news’

Paula Vennells set for third and final day of testimony

07:37 , Andy Gregory

Ex-Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells is set for her third and final day of evidence – unless she is recalled to testify again to the inquiry at a later date.

With the inquiry’s lead counsel Jason Beer KC having finished his questions, Paula Vennells will today face a grilling from lawyers on behalf of subpostmasters.

Such showdowns with other Post Office bosses earlier in the inquiry have proved to be combustible bouts.

The former boss has already faced a bruising two days this week, breaking down in tears multiple times on Wednesday as she apologised to subpostmasters and was quizzed on her reaction to the death of former subpostmaster Martin Griffiths.

And on Thursday, there were audible groans from the public gallery after emails showed Ms Vennells had appeared to suggest that “managing the media” was a priority over reviewing Horizon cases.

07:25 , Andy Gregory

Good morning, and thanks for joining us on our Post Office inquiry blog, where we’ll be bringing you live updates on Paula Vennells third and final day of testimony.

‘Completely unfair’ for Post Office to maintain there were not ‘system issues’ with Horizon

Thursday 23 May 2024 02:35 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has said it was “completely unfair” of the Post Office to maintain that there were no systemic errors in Horizon.

Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked if a “frequent refrain” of the Post Office in 2014 was that there were no systemic errors in Horizon.

Ms Vennells replied: “It was, and it was wrong ... it was completely unfair to use in the business.”

Vennells asked why ‘folklore’ about Horizon was circulating within Post Office

Thursday 23 May 2024 01:24 , Andy Gregory

Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked Paula Vennells why a number of “false statements” or “folklore” about Horizon were circulating within the Post Office.

Mr Beer put to her that the Post Office falsely believed that every time it went to court it won, that there were no faults in Horizon and that there was no remote access for Fujitsu. Ms Vennells responded: “At the time they were not considered to be false statements. The source of those statements, I can’t recall clearly, but on something like this the only possible source of this statement would have been through the Post Office legal team.

“So the answer for all of them would be to look for where the expertise sat within the organisation as to the genesis of what we now know are false statements.”

Mr Beer asked if it is a “serious issue” if “folklore develops” which has “no foundation in fact”.

Ms Vennells said: “I agree.”

Mr Beer also asked if it says something about the culture of the Post Office if “such folklore developed or was perpetuated and nobody checked the real facts?”

Ms Vennells replied: “That’s a difficult question to answer because in hindsight it is completely valid. At the time, certainly where I was concerned, I believed that I was getting information from the people who were employed to give me the best advice because of their expertise. I didn’t believe that any of those things were folklore at all.”

Six more former Post Office workers have convictions quashed

Thursday 23 May 2024 00:27 , Andy Gregory

Six more former Post Office workers have had their convictions for offences including theft and fraud quashed amid the Horizon IT scandal, lawyers have said.

One of the six, Sushma Blaggan, attended the nearby inquiry shortly after her theft conviction from 2004 was quashed to see former Post Office boss Paula Vennells give evidence.

Assad Alli, Marion Chapman, Thomas Mulhall, Kimberly Connors and Seema Rahman also had their convictions overturned on Wednesday at a Southwark Crown Court hearing which took place at the Royal Courts of Justice in central London.

Paula Vennells shown damning text from ex-Royal Mail chief over Post Office scandal

Wednesday 22 May 2024 23:41 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been confronted with a damning text from the former chief executive of the Royal Mail suggesting she knew about flaws in the Horizon IT system used by the Post Office.

“I think you knew,” the ex-Post Office boss was told by Canadian-born Moya Greene, who was in charge of the Royal Mail for eight years.

Ms Vennells replied, telling Ms Greene: “No Moya, that isn’t the case.”

But, in an exchange of messages shown to the official Post Office Horizon IT inquiry, Ms Greene told Ms Vennells she could no longer support her “after what I have learned”.

Archie Mitchell reports:

Paula Vennells shown damning text from ex-Royal Mail chief: ‘I think you knew’

Watch: Paula Vennells claims she was ‘too trusting’ when asked if she was UK’s ‘unluckiest CEO’

Wednesday 22 May 2024 22:57 , Andy Gregory

Vennells ‘did not register’ briefing on remote Horizon data removal

Wednesday 22 May 2024 22:16 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells said she “did not register” a briefing given before she gave evidence to the select committee which said that if she was pushed further when being questioned she could say there was “functionality” in Horizon for the Post Office or Fujitsu to edit, manipulate or remove transaction data once it has been recorded in a branch’s accounts.

She added that she “did not reach a conclusion” that meant she was giving “inaccurate information to the select committee”.

Met Police says he has been assured Met Police will probe Horizon scandal

Wednesday 22 May 2024 21:33 , Andy Gregory

Campaigner Alan Bates said he met “senior” Metropolitan Police staff on Wednesday morning to discuss possible prosecutions following the Post Office Horizon scandal.

He said: “They certainly are going to investigate, I’ve had that assurance and I think the group needs that as an assurance and it’s something that we’ve never been certain of until today.”

Paula Vennells accepts statements she made to MPs were wrong

Wednesday 22 May 2024 20:41 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells said she accepts statements made in her letters to MPs in response to questions about Horizon were wrong, in her first witness statement.

Ms Vennells was asked by the inquiry to comment on statements in her letters to three MPs, including: saying to Nicholas Brown MP that “the system has proved to be very robust since its introduction”; a statement to Mike Weir MP that the Post Office was “fully confident that the Horizon computer system ... enabled sub postmasters to account accurately for the transactions they undertake in their branch”; and her statement to Mike Weir MP that “there is no evidence at all that the Horizon system has in some way been at fault with respect to any financial irregularities discovered in a sub postmasters account”.

She said she “believed these statements to be true”, adding they were “justified by specialist knowledge, because I understood that these statements came from, or were approved by, senior specialist managers with detailed knowledge of the Horizon system and the operation of SPM accounts”.

Ms Vennells added: “I accept that these statements were wrong”.

Paula Vennells accused of asking team to ‘dig into’ dead man’s records

Wednesday 22 May 2024 19:58 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been accused of asking her team to “dig into” the records of Martin Griffiths, who stepped in front of a bus after being sacked from his Post Office branch in 2013.

The former Post Office chief was quizzed at the inquiry into the Horizon IT scandal about an email she sent after his suicide attempt suggesting she had heard about “previous mental health and family issues”.

In the email to Post Office executives, Ms Vennells said: “Can you let me know what background we have on Martin? I had heard, but have yet to see a formal report, that there were previously mental health issues and potential family issues.”

Inquiry lead counsel Jason Beer KC asked if Ms Vennells was asking her team to “dig into Mr Griffiths’ health records to look for information or evidence that he took his life because of mental issues or family issues?”

Our political correspondent Archie Mitchell reports:

Paula Vennells accused of asking team to ‘dig into’ dead man’s records

Watch: Paula Vennells cries as she gives evidence at Post Office Horizon IT inquiry

Wednesday 22 May 2024 19:22 , Andy Gregory

Subpostmaster told Paula Vennels: ‘I do wonder what kind of god you worship'

Wednesday 22 May 2024 18:49 , Andy Gregory

A former subpostmaster who tried to warn the Post Office about the Horizon IT system emailed Paula Vennells when she was chief executive, saying: “I do wonder what kind of god you worship”.

In 2015, Tim McCormack wrote to Ms Vennells, an ordained priest, warning her that he had “clear and unquestionable evidence of an intermittent bug in Horizon that can and does cause thousands of pounds in losses to subpostmasters”.

Giving evidence at the inquiry, Ms Vennells denied sharing the view of Post Office lawyer Rodric Williams that Mr McCormack was a bluffer but said she did not recall what she did about the subpostmaster’s email.

The probe heard Mr McCormack sent another message to Ms Vennells in July 2016, saying: “A typical head in the sand reply from the team you have placed too much trust in. Once the police investigation is completed it is highly likely, indeed probable, that members of your staff will be sent to prison. Your role in this will not escape attention.”

He added: “I do wonder what kind of god you worship.”

Alan Bates says he has ‘no sympathy’ for Paula Vennells

Wednesday 22 May 2024 18:21 , Andy Gregory

Campaigner Alan Bates has said he has “no sympathy” for Paula Vennells after her tears.

Speaking outside Aldwych House after Ms Vennells gave evidence, Mr Bates said: “The whole thing is upsetting for everybody, including for so many of the victims. I’ve got no sympathy really.”

Asked if he thinks she is genuinely sorry, he added: “I wonder about these apologies, these are just words.”

Paula Vennells evidence ‘like figure skating on head of a pin’, says Alan Bates

Wednesday 22 May 2024 17:56 , Andy Gregory

Campaigner Alan Bates has said Paula Vennells’ evidence was “like figure skating on the head of a pin”.

Speaking outside Aldwych House after Ms Vennells gave evidence, Mr Bates said: “It was a bit like figure skating on the head of a pin all day, isn’t hindsight a wonderful thing?

“It’s only the first day of three so I don’t know where we’ll get to but it was good to see her on the stand.”

Chair thanks public for their restraint during Paula Vennells testimony

Wednesday 22 May 2024 17:29 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry’s chair Sir Wyn Williams thanked those in the gallery for their restraint throughout today’s proceedings, as the hearing was adjourned for the day.

He said: “Can I say to the members of the public and the core participants who were present that it would have been possible for there to have been a lot more verbal intervention than there has been from the floor – and I’m very grateful to you for your restrained behaviour during the course of the day.

“But that’s not to encourage you to be less restrained, that is to encourage you to be, if anything, even more restrained during the remainder of this week.”

Vennells accused of crocodile tears by union

Wednesday 22 May 2024 16:55 , Tom Barnes

Postal worker’s union CWU posted a video of Vennells’ tearful testimony accusing her of producing “crocodile tears”.

They added: “No tears when postmasters were tragically taking their own lives due to stress. No tears when postmasters were being jailed. “No tears when postmasters had their whole communities turning against them. Tears now are too late. Paula Vennells must be held to account.”

Vennells struggles to muster tears as inquiry is adjourned

Wednesday 22 May 2024 16:50 , Barney Davis

Sir Wyn Williams asks just before break about the Post Office strategy and whether Vennells was being advised to be “very precise, very circumspect and very guarded” about what you said to MPs.

She replies: “I would [agree] but I’m not sure I would have noticed that on the morning of the day.”

He asks: “Why?

She takes some five seconds to begin her answer: “With hindsight because possibly...

He interjects: “If you need time to think about it you can tell me in the morning” to laughter from the gallery.

She appears to begin to tear up again.

Vennells warned of facing ‘adverse media commentary’ over Fujitsu super-user email

Wednesday 22 May 2024 16:36 , Barney Davis

Jason Beer KC says the inquiry will break for the evening soon.

He shows Paula an email received from General Counsel Jane MacLeod telling her to be prepared for “adverse comments from the usual commentators”.

She replies: “Thanks Jane This is clear - my inly [sic] query is we FJ [Fujitsu] super-users. What did we say previously?”

Ms MacLeod writes back: “We haven’t preciously addressed super-users and the phrasing of some previous statements as to who can access and edit branch data is quite narrow.”

She adds: “It is clear that this is an area where we could face adverse media commentary.”

Subpostmistress who ‘paid back’ £70,000 to Post Office says they accused her children of stealing

Wednesday 22 May 2024 16:30 , Barney Davis

A former subpostmistress has told The Independent the Post Office accused her children of stealing money from the till.

Myra Philip worked at the counter alongside her mother, Mary, who ran a post office in Auchtermuchty, a town in Fife, Scotland.

With her mother, she paid £70,000 back to the Post Office through a combination of loans, savings and borrowing from family members, leaving her feeling ”humiliated, shamed, and frustrated”.

Woman who ‘paid back’ £70,000 to Post Office says her kids were accused of stealing

Paula Vennells accused of adopting ‘odd approach'

Wednesday 22 May 2024 16:28 , Barney Davis

The inquiry was told of an email Paula Vennells sent before the select committee hearing saying she needed to tell MPs “it is not possible” to access Horizon remotely. Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked why she needed to say remote access was not possible.

Ms Vennells responded: “I phrased this point very specifically and I can remember why I did this.

“Alice Perkins, not related to this particularly, but I can remember Alice Perkins saying to me at some stage, ‘Paula if you want to get the truth and a really clear answer from somebody, you should tell them what it is you want to say very clearly and then ask for the information that backs that up’, that was why I phrased this that way.”

Mr Beer said: “That’s an odd way of going about things, isn’t it? ‘I want to know the answer to the question, here’s the answer to the question, tell me I’m wrong’.”

Ms Vennells added: “Well yes, I hoped they would do….I believed this was absolutely the case, I had an obligation going before the select committee to be able to share the information that I knew and be able to answer their questions correctly and this is what I was trying to ask for from the team. I was not in any way, if you’re suggesting this, trying to tell them what the answer should be.”

Vennells: I didn’t understand level of access Fujitsu had to Horizon

Wednesday 22 May 2024 16:05 , Matt Mathers

Paula Vennells said she “didn’t understand” the level of access Fujistu had to the Horizon IT system.

Ms Vennells was shown details of a statement from 2011 that referenced an audit of the system by accounting company Ernst & Young.

The statement said Ernst & Young had found there were “inappropriate system privileges” assigned at the database level which increased the risk of “erroneous transactions”.

“I don’t believe that I took it…that I understood…that degree of detail”.

Vennells admits she received correspondence about issues facing subpostmasters

Wednesday 22 May 2024 15:50 , Matt Mathers

Paula Vennells accepted that she routinely received correspondence about issues subpostmasters were facing.

Asked if she saw a pattern in the correspondence, she said: “I saw the theme of Horizon coming up.”

“Was anything done by you to join the dots between them?” counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked.

Ms Vennells replied: “The dots I believed were being joined through the investigation work in the Complaints Mediation Scheme and in every case I believed we had looked at it in some detail and I regret today that clearly neither of those exposed the issues that we came to find out about through the Horizon issues judgment.”

Vennells: I didn’t believe statements about Horizon were folklore

Wednesday 22 May 2024 15:47 , Matt Mathers

Paula Vennells said she didn’t believe any of the statements made by lawyers about Horizon were “folklore”.

Jason Beer KC asked her if it said something about the culture of the organisation that false statements about the IT system were allowed to spread.

Taking a long pause before answering, Ms Vennells said she had no reason to believe the statements were false.

‘I do wonder what type of god you worship’

Wednesday 22 May 2024 15:39 , Matt Mathers

A former subpostmaster who tried to warn the organisation about the Horizon system emailed Paula Vennells in 2016 saying: “I do wonder what kind of god you worship.”

Paula Vennells was questioned on a number of emails she received from Tim McCormack at the Horizon IT Inquiry.

The inquiry heard how the subpostmaster received a standard response to one of his emails, with Post Office lawyer Rodric Williams commenting before the response was sent:

“Generally my view is that this guy is a bluffer, who keeps expecting us to march to his tune. I don’t think we should do, but instead respond with a straight bat.”

Ms Vennells denied thinking that Mr McCormack was a bluffer.

Mr McCormack sent another email to Ms Vennells in July 2016, saying: “A typical head in the sand reply from the team you have placed too much trust in. Once the police investigation is completed it is highly likely, indeed probable, that members of your staff will be sent to prison. Your role in this will not escape attention.”

He added: “I do wonder what kind of god you worship.”

Post Office lawyers responsible for false statements about Horizon - Vennells

Wednesday 22 May 2024 15:22 , Matt Mathers

The Post Office legal team was responsible for false statements and “folklore” about the IT Horizon accounting system circulating within the organisation, Paula Vennells has suggested.

She was asked why staff had made comments claiming that Horizon had no faults; every time the software had been investigated no errors had been; the Post Office always won in court and that Fujitsu had no remote access to the system.

Ms Vennells said those statements were not false at the time before suggesting the Post Office’s legal team was responsible for them.

“The source of those statements were...the only possible source of this statement would have been through the post office legal team.”

‘I don’t recall'

Wednesday 22 May 2024 15:09 , Matt Mathers

Ex-Post Office boss Paula Vennells has said she regrets that concerns raised by a former subpostmaster “took too long to address”.

In 2015, Tim McCormack wrote to Ms Vennells warning her that he had “clear and unquestionable evidence of an intermittent bug in Horizon that can and does cause thousands of pounds in losses to subpostmasters”.

Asked what she did after receiving this, Ms Vennells said: “I don’t recall.”

Amid gasps from those in the room, she went on: “Genuinely, I don’t recall.”

She later added: “In hindsight I think he was right and I regret that the matters he was raising took too long to address.”

I regret using the word noise about complaints - Vennells

Wednesday 22 May 2024 15:03 , Matt Mathers

Paula Vennells said she “regrets” using the word “noise” in association with complaints launched by subpostmasters about the Horizon IT system.

Asked at the inquiry into the scandal if “noise” was what complaints were seen as at the top end of the Post Office, Ms Vennells said: “No, and I’m sorry it is not a good word but you have also seen how I have responded personally to other individual matters.

“It is a word I regret using.”

Asked if it reflected the “workings of the minds” of those at the top of the business, Ms Vennells said: “I think it reflects a wrong understanding yes that people believed that Horizon worked and this is me deploying a word that was unwise.

“I did not in any way mean that I personally did not take seriously issues when they got to me.”

Vennells blames ‘unfair’ Post Office for maintaining ‘no errors’ in Horizon

Wednesday 22 May 2024 14:50 , Matt Mathers

Paula Vennells has said it was "completely unfair" of the Post Office to maintain that there were no systemic errors in Horizon.

Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asked if a "frequent refrain" of the Post Office in 2014 was that there were no systemic errors in Horizon.

Ms Vennells replied: "It was, and it was wrong...it was completely unfair to use in the business.”

Post Office’s most senior IT manager was dismissive of story about accounting glitch - Vennells

Wednesday 22 May 2024 14:45 , Matt Mathers

The Post Office’s most senior IT manager was “dismissive” of a magazine which broke the story of seven subpostmasters beginning their fight for justice in 2009, Paula Vennells said.

In her first witness statement, Ms Vennells said the first she was aware that anyone was questioning Horizon was after the Computer Weekly article was published in May 2009.

She said the article was raised by Mike Young at a meeting of the executive management team who said it was “critical of Horizon and had been picked up by a Welsh language television station”.

Ms Vennells added: “I remember this reasonably well because Mike was dismissive of Computer Weekly. I recall he said it was a trade magazine that did not know what it was talking about in relation to Horizon. Mike said he was handling it.

“I spoke to him about it after the meeting because I was still concerned. He assured me that there was nothing wrong with the system and that the article was nonsense (or words to that effect).”

She will ‘never’ shed as many tears as I have - wronged subpostmaster

Wednesday 22 May 2024 14:34 , Matt Mathers

Wronged subpostmaster Lee Castleton has said Paula Vennells will “never” shed as many tears as he has.

Mr Castleton, from Bridlington, East Yorkshire, was found to have a £25,000 shortfall at his branch in 2004. He was made bankrupt after he lost his legal battle with the Post Office.

Speaking about Ms Vennells’ evidence, he said: “She’s got a huge opportunity to get what she sees as the truth out there.

“I think it’s a huge stage for her, I think the paperwork is fantastic, to see what was being written at the time it’s really, really important for us to see that. And what she remembers really is kind of a background for me, the actual verbal evidence is not really that important.”

Asked about Ms Vennells breaking down in tears, he added: “She’ll never shed as many as I have, I’m afraid, or my family, or the rest of the victims or the wider group.

“Not that I have no empathy for that because I do, I understand completely.

“I’d imagine a lot of it’s nerves too and doing her best. I think she’s got a need or want to do the right thing.”

Paula Vennells should be made homeless, postmaster suggests

Wednesday 22 May 2024 14:29 , Matt Mathers

Rubina, a sub postmistress who was accused of taking £43,000 in 2010 and sentenced to a 12 months in prison, said Paula Vennells should be made “homeless”, Archie Mitchell reports.

When asked whether she wants to see Paula Vennells go to prison, she told Times Radio: "I don’t want Paula Vennells to go to prison because she won’t learn anything.

“The only way she’ll learn is everything being stripped of her, her assets, her mark against her name so that she can’t get employment, made homeless. That’s how I want her to pay back what she did to us"

"When people like [her] go to prison, they don’t learn anything. After three or four months or six months later they’ll be out.”

Lord Arbuthnot says Vennells’ testimony is an ‘astonishing announcement of her ignorance’

Wednesday 22 May 2024 14:18 , Archie Mitchell

Lord Arbuthnot, James Arbuthnot, a member of the Horizon Compensation Advisory Board has told Times Radio that Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells testimony is an “astonishing announcement of her ignorance” and is “displaying an incompetence of gargantuan scale”

He said: “It’s an astonishing announcement of her ignorance of what the organisation of which she was chief executive was actually doing and I think Sir William’s reaction was a bit of incredulity. How could you not know that your organisation was prosecuting hundreds and hundreds of sub-postmasters.

“The question is, is it credible? She was either telling the truth but displaying an incompetence of gargantuan scale or she was not telling the truth.”

He also rejected her argument that she did not know about the prosecutions: “For one thing, I wrote to Moira Green, her predecessor chief executive, in 2011 and got a letter back from her, from Paula Vennells, talking about the prosecutions.

“So, to say that she didn’t know until after she’d written the letter to me about prosecutions strikes me as being just not credible.”

Paula Vennells accused of asking team to ‘dig into’ dead man’s records

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:58 , Maryam Zakir-Hussain

Paula Vennells has been accused of asking her team to “dig into” the records of Martin Griffiths, who stepped in front of a bus after being sacked from his Post Office branch in 2013.

The former Post Office chief was quizzed at the inquiry into the Horizon IT scandal about an email she sent after his suicide attempt suggesting she had heard about “previous mental health and family issues”.

In the email to Post Office executives, Ms Vennells said: “Can you let me know what background we have on Martin?

Paula Vennells accused of asking team to ‘dig into’ dead man’s records

Vennells received direct correspondence from subpostmasters having issues with the computer system from 2012, inquiry hears

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:46 , Maryam Zakir-Hussain

The Horizon IT Inquiry heard that Paula Vennells received direct correspondence from subpostmasters having issues with the computer system from 2012.

Ms Vennells sent an email after receiving word from subpostmaster Pervez Nakvi about Horizon issues in February 2012, in which the former Post Office chief executive said: “It is very frustrating to receive mails like this. Pervez is right to raise it.

“It is my understanding that Horizon is reliable...but if trusted individuals like Pervez are now not feeling that is the case are we monitoring the right metrics?”

Asked if it was relevant that they were a trusted individual, she said: “I responded to all complaints in the exact same way. It would not have made a difference whether I knew the subpostmaster or not.”

Pressed on whether all complaints raised by subpostmasters would call for investigation, Ms Vennells said: “I would hope so. I’m sure there are cases where that was not the case but I would have tried to.”

Paula Vennells breaks into tears again over ‘disturbing’ reports from postmasters

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:37 , Archie Mitchell

Paula Vennells has broken into tears for a third time amid a grilling about what she called “disturbing” reports from postmasters as the Horizon IT scandal unfolded.

She was asked about eight examples of complaints from postmasters who had applied for mediation in 2013.

After reading the complaints, she wrote an email to a colleague saying: “Apart from finding them very disturbing, I defy anyone not to, I’m now even better informed.”

She described the “dreadful” financial impacts on some postmasters and said she wanted to share their stories with colleagues.

But, referring to a 2015 decision by the former Post Office chief to close the mediation scheme, inquiry counsel Jason Beer KC asked what happened between that decision and her finding the cases “disturbing”.

“When did they cease to become very disturbing?” he asked.

Ms Vennells broke into tears before saying nothing had been found in the mediation process and there were “explanations” for what had happened in every case.

“I’m very sorry we didn’t reach the right conclusion on these cases,” she added.

Fujitsu chief described Horizon like ‘Fort Knox’, Vennells said

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:24 , Andy Gregory

Fujitsu Europe’s then-chief executive described the core of Horizon like “Fort Knox” or an “aircraft flight recorder” when discussing remote access, Paula Vennells said in her first witness statement.

Ms Vennells and Duncan Tait, Fujitsu Europe’s then-CEO, concurred it was “implausible” that Post Office branch accounts could be altered remotely, Ms Vennells said when detailing her understanding of remote access as of July 3 2013.

She said she asked Mr Tait if a Fujitsu colleague could alter branch accounts remotely, and said his response was no and “we concurred it was an implausible scenario”.

She added: “Why would a Fujitsu colleague try to hack into a branch’s accounts? We couldn’t find any suitable explanation - there was no way they could benefit financially from such an action. The only possible reason would be a malicious act by a disgruntled employee.

“Duncan described the core of Horizon like a black box, ie., similar to an aircraft flight recorder; he said that even if someone wanted to, it was not possible to alter or break it.

“I had heard the black box description before. He described how secure the system was - that even if someone had the motivation, it just wasn’t possible - Horizon was like Fort Knox. I found it reassuring that the CEO of Fujitsu confirmed that there was no cause for concern and that the system could not be tampered with.”

Paula Vennells questions why she did not see report warning Horizon ‘not fit for purpose’

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:18 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has said she does not know why she was not shown a 2013 report warning that Post Office systems were “not fit for purpose in a modern retail and financial environment” – and said she is not sure she even knew that company Detica were carrying it out.

Ms Vennells said: “I find it very strange that it wasn’t brought to me, not just to my attention, but to the attention of everybody else who had responsibilities in terms of the running of the Post Office.”

Asked whether it was a serious failure by Lesley Sewell, Chris Aujard and Angela van den Bogerd – who all appear to have had access to the document – not to inform her, Ms Vennells said: “I find it very strange that it wasn’t brought to my – and it isn’t just to my attention, it’s the attention of everybody else who had responsibilities in terms of the running of the Post Office.

Pressed on whether she had “any clue why they would want to keep you, the executive, and the board, out of this information”, she said: “No I don’t. And I don’t recall either that they were colleagues that I would have suspected were witholding something from the board, or myself.

“I don’t understand why the report didn’t progress.”

Jailed subpostmaster expresses sympathy for Vennells

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:08 , Andy Gregory

Former subpostmaster Janet Skinner – who was sentenced to nine months in prison in 2007 for false accounting – expressed sympathy for Paula Vennells in giving evidence to a room of people with “eyes full of hatred”.

“I’ll be honest I felt quite emotional this morning,” Ms Skinner told the PA news agency. “I actually felt emotional for her because she is up there and she has got all these eyes there that are just full of hatred towards her and that must be such an overwhelming, horrible, intense feeling.”

But she said Ms Vennells “has brought it all on herself” before continuing: “This is her time on that stand to now put her side of the story out there. Everybody has chucked mud at her, it’s time for her to open up and be quite open and honest about who was at the forefront of it all.”

Paula Vennells pressed on vast team investigating subpostmasters

Wednesday 22 May 2024 13:00 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has been pressed once again by lead counsel Richard Beer KC on how she had not realised the Post Office had a vast team prosecuting subpostmasters when speaking to former head of security John Scott after the Second Sight report.

Mr Beer said: “When you spoke to John Scott about this, did you not say: ‘I’ve been in the organisation five or six years now, I didn’t know you had a team of 100 people that were investigating up and down the country subpostmasters and sending them to prison’.”

He added: “Dozens of prosecutions occurred when you were network director, dozens of prosecutions occurred when you were managing director – collectively hundreds of prosecutions went on, conducted by the Post Office, having been investigated by the Post Office – and you didn’t know about it until 2012.

“So when you spoke to [former head of security] John Scott, did you not say: ‘how’s this all been going on? Who’s been managing you? Why doesn’t the board know about this?’”

Ms Vennells replied that at the time she spoke to Mr Scott “all that had changed” because “we had stopped prosecutions, his team had been substantially reduced in number and we were looking into the complaints made by the subpostmasters”.

Inquiry chair presses Vennells over claims not to realise Post Office prosecuted its own staff

Wednesday 22 May 2024 12:47 , Andy Gregory

The inquiry’s chair Sir Wyn Williams has stepped in to quiz Paula Vennells over her claims not to have realised the Post Office prosecuted its own staff until 2012 – despite joining the organisation in 2007.

Ms Vennells told the inquiry “it was an accepted reality, it was a status quo that I joined and accepted”, adding: “I shouldn’t have done.”

This prompted Sir Wyn to interject: “Isn’t an accepted reality an acknowledgement of an awareness of the reality? Mr Beer’s pressing you on how it could possibly be that you weren’t aware of the use of a function which was highly unusual for a private company.”

She replied: “I agree, Sir Wyn. The way that Mr Beer describes it is that it was a function that one didn’t hear about. We knew about cases being prosecuted, and I can’t remember – the Post Office board met infrequently – whether there were significant litigation reports that came to the Post Office board before I became chief executive.

“I can’t remember, but I think everybody’s understanding – mine included – was that where prosecutions were conducted, they were conducted by external authorities.”

But Sir Wyn noted: “There was at least one case two years before 2012 – Mrs Misra’s case – which attracted great deal of publicity. It does seem extremely surprising that it didn’t filter through at that point that it was actually the Post Office that was prosecuting, not the CPS.”

Ms Vennells said: “I agree. I haven’t seen anything in the documentation that points to the fact that one would have known that”, prompting Sir Wyn to interject: “I don’t think I need documentation to infer that this might be a point of discussion among senior people.”

Ms Vennells said: “I apologise. My point about documentation was whether there was anything that would have prompted my memory. I have no recollection of being involved in conversations about Mrs Misra’s case ... there were not, as far as I know, discussions about the fact it was Post Office who had investigated and brought the prosecution.”

Paula Vennells says she was ‘surprised’ to learn Post Office prosecuted its own staff

Wednesday 22 May 2024 12:37 , Andy Gregory

Paula Vennells has insisted she did not know until 2012 that the Post Office conducted its own private criminal investigations.

Asked about notes from a meeting in 2008 which shows trainee investigators and the sums reclaimed from postmasters were discussed, Ms Vennells said it would be a reasonable inference to draw from the document that the Post Office was personally recouping money from its own staff – but insisted she had not taken that from the meeting herself.

She added: “I should have known and I should have asked more questions, and I and others who also didn't know should have dug much more deeply into this.”

Ms Vennells said she was “surprised” to learn in 2012 that the Post Office prosecuted its own staff, and said she recalled no discussion of that in the years she had served on the Post Office’s risk and compliance committee.