MAKERS@Home with Kara Goldin

“The journey isn’t about being a unicorn or a failure. It’s about trying.” Kara Goldin, author and founder of Hint, talks with Dyllan McGee about her new book, Undaunted, which empowers women to overcome doubts and doubters. The self-proclaimed “accidental entrepreneur” discusses how she stayed true to her mission of creating a healthy drink, and the importance of surrounding herself with a great team.

Video Transcript

DYLLAN MCGEE: Hi, everyone. I am Dyllan McGee, founder and executive producer of Makers, coming to you live from my office in Westchester, New York. I know it's been like a year. I still just-- it cracks me up. Anyway, happy Women's History Month. And we have a very exciting guest for you today, who, full disclosure, is also a pal of mine. And if there are any entrepreneurs in the house, let us know because you're about to get some great advice.

Now her name is Kara Goldin, and I'm going to get dressed up for the interview because it's important. She has written a book called "Undaunted." "Undaunted." Kara Goldin, the founder and CEO of Hint. Yes, and it's about overcoming doubts and doubters. So we all-- I'm sure if you're human-- have doubts, you know? And and Kara is going to talk to us about her incredible experience.

And I'm pretty excited about it. In addition, to know, she's the CEO, I think I said, on the cover of Hint Water and the founder. By the way, Kara, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Hint I read is the largest non-alcoholic beverage company in the US. Big deal. It's I think worth $150 million, maybe. That rings a bell in my head, too.

Not only does she do Hint Water, but, hello, hand sanitizer. She adapted. Suntan lotion. Chapstick. It's amazing. So there we go. There's my little marketing for Kara, but now you get to meet her yourself. And let us know if you have questions. So Kara, I'm bringing you on. Here we go. Kara.

KARA GOLDIN: Hello! How are you?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Good. Wait, my hat gets cut off. I can't have that. We need the branding in there.

KARA GOLDIN: OK. I'll sit up a little higher in my chair, too. How are you? Good to see you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I'm great. look at your fancy neon lights.

KARA GOLDIN: I know, right? I've got both my Undaunted and my Hint behind me. So it's-- yeah, it's good stuff.

DYLLAN MCGEE: It's funny. Someone just wrote, too bad all the words are backwards. I know. I haven't figured out how to do that in anything. Have you in your book tour, like, have you [INAUDIBLE] opposite?

KARA GOLDIN: I haven't. I mean, I'm feeling pretty good that I figured out how to get neon lights in back of me. So that's as far as I've gotten.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I mean, you can run an incredible company, but you can't figure out how to get neon the right way. Come on, Kara.

KARA GOLDIN: It's so true. So anyway, so good to see you, though, also just in general. And hello, everyone.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yeah, say hi to our Makers community.

KARA GOLDIN: Yeah, amazing.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Kara, so here is the-- you may not even remember the first time we met was that the 3% conference.

KARA GOLDIN: I do remember.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I was in the audience, and I watched you. And in ways that you've been asked this forever, know, it was, what's it like to be, you know, woman founder? And, you know, you were like, you know-- or is it-- I think it was something like, isn't it hard to be a woman founder? And you were like, I don't know. I don't know what it's like to be a man. And I was like, sounds like me. That sounds like something I would say. It was so-- and I stopped you afterwards. I was like, that was so refreshing and so true.

So one of the things that I adore about you is you sort of tell it like it is. And this book is-- it's just very real, and fun, and my god you're transparent about your experience in building this company. It's sort of stories that people don't often talk about, you know? And I want to get into that.

So, I mean, first of all, you know, you're-- like, now that I've read this book and I know the hurdles that you went through, and you're so crazed, what was the motivation to write a book?

KARA GOLDIN: So so much of the time over the last couple of years, I was-- you know, I'd be on these stages, and the Q&A at the end, you never know where the questions are going to come from. And so often, people would almost apologize for, you know, kind of looking at how they are versus how I am. They would say, you're obviously a, you know, fearless risk taker, and, you know, you've never had any failures along the way.

And I really think after hearing that after a year, I just thought, wow, is that what I look like? Because that is not what's happened at all along the way. And I would share these stories with you, and with, you know, other friends, and they'd say, this is so crazy. It's almost funny, I mean, along the way. And I would just share these stories, and Alex Wallace-- you know Alex as well. And, you know, they would- we would talk about these things.

And so finally, I started journaling because I thought there were so many ideas, and primarily for my talks, to kind of think about other things that had come up along the, you know, way that I thought I could just do better when I was answering some of these questions. And then I thought-- I was wondering if I should actually bind my journal just to really help people. And then a friend of mine who's an author said, oh, you mean write a book? And I was a journalism major, so-- but it was never on my bucket list. I call myself an accidental entrepreneur, but I call myself an accidental author, too, because, well, it's great to have it on your bucket list, it just wasn't on mine.

And I really, really thought, you know, more than anything, can I help people recognize that it's not about-- the journey isn't about being a unicorn or a failure, it's about trying. And it's about going out, and having a plan, and understanding that your plan may change along the way. And, you know, there's so many things that I believe are really important. There's things that I learned along the way, such as not actually having the perfect experience helped me to be able to kind of get more done because people would almost, I think in many ways, think, OK, she was a tech executive, now she's running a beverage company. She's totally owned the fact that she does not understand how to get into Cisco, how to produce this product, and they would give me a shot. And I--

DYLLAN MCGEE: I mean, Kara, we have to give our audience an example because it's-- it is the details that I just couldn't get enough of. Like, I mean, tell the story of when you realized that there was bacteria, and potentially there could be mold in some of these. And your husband, who, by the way, everyone should know her husband ended up partnering with her, which is another amazing story in this whole thing. But and-- I tell-- you tell the story. What he had you do.

KARA GOLDIN: Well, I think more than anything, I mean, we were-- we were doing something that was just impossible. I wanted a product that didn't have sweeteners in it, but also didn't have preservatives in it. And so I would run around to all these bottling plants and say, how come I can't produce a product that doesn't have-- that doesn't have sweeteners in it and doesn't have preservatives in it? And, you know, the preservative part, everybody just would say just because.

And, again, because I didn't come from the food industry or the soda industry, they were-- you know people would just assume that I would just walk away at that point. But I was a consumer who just wanted to know. Like, do you know? I mean, you're not in a beverage-- do you know why you have to-- I mean-

DYLLAN MCGEE: No.

KARA GOLDIN: You think-- right? So all these questions I would just to ask. And so many people would just look at me and chew me. But after a while, it just got really hard because we would get our-- we got our product into Whole Foods, and then we were-- we were almost short shipping the product purposely so that we could make sure that the product didn't, you know, have problems.

And we were testing it along the way. I mean, we were being super safe about it. But then there was kind of this cloud-like system that was going in the water, which if you've never seen mold in water before, it's like a science project that you should watch it. It does not look like typical mold. And we had never seen anything like it before. And we see this in the water.

And, you know, at that point, we thought, OK it's all over, right? We're on the shelf in Whole Foods. We went and had it tested in a lab in San Francisco, and, you know, it wasn't going to kill you. I always remind people that this is before kombucha, which, by the way, is mold. And so-

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right. Right.

KARA GOLDIN: This is before all of that.

DYLLAN MCGEE: You are ahead of all these waters. All this stuff.

KARA GOLDIN: And no one was putting mold in their water prior to. And so Whole Foods just didn't believe us that it wasn't safe. And, you know, I mean, you go into Whole Foods now and see how much kombucha is in there. And, you know, it's a totally different story. And so my husband, of course, didn't want me to drink it. But we were both confident, and I would have drank it. But he said, no, no, watch, and he drank the water.

And people-- I mean, I'll never forget the buyer's face. She just looked at him and said, are you OK with this? I mean, are you going to-- do I need to call an ambulance? Or what exactly is going to happen? And we-- again, we would share the story with friends, and they would just say, this is the craziest thing.

I mean, prior to joining him, he was a very well-known intellectual property attorney in Silicon Valley. And people say, why are you guys doing this? What are you doing? And we would laugh every single day, I mean, at some of these stories. But somehow, I mean, that was stressful. That was the point where I thought we were going to have to shut the company down. And then, again, we started playing around with figuring out ways and really thinking about-- thinking outside of the box more than anything.

So something I talk about in the book, too, is actually not having the experience when you don't actually know what you're doing. All of a sudden, you just-- you kind of put that thinking cap on.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Well, it's like you said. What I love is that accidental entrepreneur. I mean, honestly, when I started MAKERS I only did it because Gloria said no. I'm a filmmaker, and they're doing a documentary on her life. And they're like, oh, OK, well-- oh, look, she's drinking her Hint water. You know--

KARA GOLDIN: I wish I could offer everybody who's watching right now one.

[LAUGHS]

DYLLAN MCGEE: It is-- I do think you come to things with-- you know, without the formula, without the-- and you're-- you're-- and you obviously are such an intrepid leader. What does accidental entrepreneur mean to you? Like how would you describe it?

KARA GOLDIN: Well, I think, you know, I had the training. I was at-- prior, but I didn't know I had it. And I didn't--

DYLLAN MCGEE: AOL, by the way, another one that you did.

KARA GOLDIN: Yes, I was at AOL, and prior to that I was at a "Time" and-- and CNN. And-- and when I came to Silicon Valley, I actually worked for a tiny, little startup that was acquired by America Online. And, you know, I think like that experience in particular-- I think back on this, and that was the point where it wasn't five guys in a garage. But it was close. It was five guys who had worked for Steve Jobs.

And I remember picking up the phone and ended up-- it was-- I didn't know anybody in Silicon Valley, so I figured, what do I have to lose? I just call them up, and they'll actually meet with me. And, you know, lots of lessons, including, I think, that they actually met with me because I had worked for CNN, which was just-- I mean, Ted Turner was still running around the office. Like it was just-- you know, really it was a late-stage startup and then prior to that time.

And it made me realize that it didn't even matter what I did there. I was a very junior-level person when I was there, and-- but it was-- it was the fact that brands win, right?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yeah.

KARA GOLDIN: That-- that was the key thing, that-- and it was something that my dad always said to me, and it's so, so true. But then the other thing that I noticed when I walked in the door-- we were all having coffee, and-- and they said, would you want to come work here?

And I was like, you guys are a bunch of engineers and former Apple people. What in the world would I do here? And I was very honest about it, and they said, well, do you think you can contribute? And-- and I thought, yeah, I can probably contribute, and they said, that's what's the most important thing.

And I think it's interesting because it's the way that I've also built our company as well is that you have to speak up, right? You have to contribute along the way. And I know, at some point, you-- it doesn't matter what your gender is--

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right, right.

KARA GOLDIN: --what school you went to--

DYLLAN MCGEE: No.

KARA GOLDIN: --any of these things. Do you add value into the equation, and are you curious? Are you going to sit there and help us to achieve our goals? And that's the most important piece.

And so, again, I had that training, and people have always asked me in building Hint, do you think your company is more like AOL? Do you think it's more like CNN? Do you think it's more like that startup or "Time"? I think I had the luxury of pulling from all these different pieces and cultures to actually build the company that I wanted.

And, you know, I'm proud to say that over 60% of our company is females, which is very unusual for a beverage company.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Woo-hoo.

KARA GOLDIN: I know, and I always say-- here's-- here's another one. I don't know if you've heard me say this on stage. People have said, have you done that on purpose? And I said, I don't know. Like I always wondered, do-- do the guys-- like the guys that are working at our company are awesome. Don't get me wrong. But like do they just not show up because they don't want to work for a female CEO?

And that's cool. Like I'm just happy that they don't answer the ad because you-- right? If you don't want to work for female CEO, it is what it is, and I think--

DYLLAN MCGEE: I mean, the other thing, Kara, though, when you talk about being a woman-- and I think this is both female and male, but you talk about in your book. I mean, it's subtitle, you know, "Overcoming Doubts and Doubters." You know, there is this sort of thick skin you have to have.

When I started MAKERS, people were like, no one cares if-- I got doors slammed. Oh, it's too feministy. Oh, I don't want to hear women's stories. And you-- God, you had some-- I mean, the Coke story.

KARA GOLDIN: Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, the-- the--

DYLLAN MCGEE: It's like-- and so what is advice to our makers of how-- how-- what made you resilient to overcome these doubters?

KARA GOLDIN: Well, I think, first of all-- I mean, the Coke story in particular that I share in the book and-- it is one where I almost was-- I was at a point where I was really going to just give up, and I had just almost thrown in the towel. I had four kids under the age of six, and, you know, I'm starting this new company that sounded really exciting and great at first.

And then it was getting hard because all these stores were saying, who's your distributor? And I'm like, me. No, you can't be--

DYLLAN MCGEE: By the way, you in your Jeep delivering the bottles. Like let's just be clear about how honest she is in this book. OK, keep going.

KARA GOLDIN: I know. It's good times, right? But I think that, more than anything, it was just-- I had gotten to a point where I had just had it. I was just tired, and a friend connected me with somebody at Coca-Cola. And basically after 15-- we ended up getting on a phone call, and after 15 minutes of me really selling him on how great we're doing-- we're in all these stores, everything's wonderful-- he interrupted me and said, sweetie, Americans love sweet. This product isn't going anywhere.

And I was like-- I remember my parents saying, good thing you weren't in the room. That would have ended really badly, I think. And I said, yeah, but I listened at that point. And I heard, essentially, strategy of what they believed this consumer wanted.

And I think at the end of the hour phone call it was, you know, fine and hung up. And then I thought, that's so interesting. He never mentioned the word health, and that was my whole purpose. And instead it was, we believe that the consumer is really-- they want to get to zero calories because diet drinks were all like 10 calories 15 years ago.

And I said, but that was me, and I was your customer. And I'm gone, right. I-- I want-- and I really felt that-- and it's something I think about large companies that I talk in the book is that, you know, they have a hard time innovating because they're listening to themselves, right, and they keep-- and that's-- and you look at any industry, and it's just-- it's the same thing.

And so today I share with entrepreneurs. I worry less about the big guys. I worry about the little, scrappy person who has purpose, and mission, fire in the belly, and is just-- and has resilience and curiosity, right, all these things that I had. And again, I didn't know that I was going to go start a company, but I got fired up about the fact that I had been unhealthy. And-- and I didn't want my kids, and my friends, and the next generation being fooled by these healthy perception things versus healthy reality. And that drove me.

And so what I heard from that gentleman was he was on a totally different mission than what I was on, and that was fine, right. He was on his cruise ship. I was on my rowboat, and I was going as fast as I could.

But I think that that's the thing, that sometimes when you have doubters-- and I'm sure you, you know, definitely when you were starting MAKERS it sounds like as well-- you have to figure out if they really are on the same river, and if they're not, don't pay attention, right.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And also one of the things you talk about, which I love, is, you know, turn the no into a yes, right?

KARA GOLDIN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Like that's your determination. You heard that, and you actually-- you know, some could just feel defeated, but you were like, no. Like actually you just gave me good information. Thank you, check. And like, I'm going to go do this, and I'm going to do it even better. So you turned that no into a yes.

And if you can believe it-- we're already at 20 minutes, but I have two more things that I have to do with you.

KARA GOLDIN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: One is, again, our audience just loves to know, you know, what advice you have. And there was one thing in your book here-- if you can see, I've got all these things earmarked. And one of the cool things I love is that there are these great quotes on every page.

KARA GOLDIN: Oh, thank you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: You wrote, "For nearly a decade, we were literally at risk of personally losing all we owned if we didn't achieve, perform, and grow," which-- I read that, and I'm like pit in my stomach. I'm scared to take risks. And then you say, "but you get used to it."

KARA GOLDIN: You do.

DYLLAN MCGEE: So, I mean, how-- for everybody watching right now who wants to be an entrepreneur, like what's your advice around taking risks?

KARA GOLDIN: Yeah, it's not-- being an entrepreneur is not for everyone, right, and I think that it's also been glamorized to a point where it sounds like, you know, you go out, you start a company, and it's all going to be perfect, right. And pretty Instagram pictures-- no offense against Instagram, but-- right? There's a lot in between there, and it's like some-- some really hard nights.

And I think that, more than anything, you've got to have a great team. You've got to be able to-- it's-- it's one thing to be a founder. It's another thing to actually stay running the company. It's another thing to be able to build the right team that has purpose and mission, just like you, so, so critical.

And just know, too-- I think that the one thing that I would say that I've shared with other entrepreneurs is that I felt-- and I think this is very true for you and for other, you know, entrepreneurs and kind of-- we're all type A people a little bit, right. We're very competitive, you know, maybe different types of competitiveness, but also challenging ourselves.

And it's OK to challenge yourself to some extent, but also saying, like, come on, we've got to do this tomorrow. There's this race that I found myself saying, do I really have to do it? Right, and can I slow down a little bit? Can I actually go to Mommy & Me class this afternoon? When my kid-- I've got three in college now, and they don't want to go to Mommy & Me classes with me anymore. But-- right?

DYLLAN MCGEE: (LAUGHS)

KARA GOLDIN: But I wanted to do that, and-- and so I think that that is so important. And that's the luxury of being an entrepreneur, but, you know, that is such a big lesson learned. And then also, I think, just finding the right people that are going to back you and-- and frankly, I think it's the same thing for a book. I mean, having written a book-- I-- there were a few publishers that I talked to that wanted me to write a very different book, and I did not want to write that book.

And so I remember an author friend of mine saying to me, you know, what-- what do you think. And I said, it's more money, it's more-- you know, all these things along the way. And she said, but is that-- if you only got one in you, is that really what you want to write? And I said, no. She said, then don't. And I'm like, you're right. And so I think it's the same thing. It's like, partners are critical, and you-- you--

DYLLAN MCGEE: You used the phrase "find your tribe" in your book.

KARA GOLDIN: Totally, and-- and-- but sometimes, even as a founder and-- you know, you need to have somebody knock you upside the head, right, a few times to say, don't do that, you know. And I'll give another plug for Alex Wallace.

I gave-- she was in the book. You-- you-- I don't know if you caught that she was in the book there, too, and-- you know, she was somebody that-- she would just knock some sense into me, right, and-- and she didn't know she was doing it, but through her own stories it-- it resonated. And that's what this is.

DYLLAN MCGEE: You need to surround yourself by people who are willing to tell you the truth, and it-- but it also takes a leader like you, Kara, to be able to listen to that truth. And I really mean it when I say that there are a lot of books out there about starting a company, and you have to believe in failure, and you have to-- you know, there are a lot of common narratives, but what is not common about this book is the specificity.

It's the true honesty. I had a pit in my stomach, feeling like I was starting this company with you, and it's such a beautiful and honest read. So I-- I-- I hope it becomes one on one for entrepreneurs because--

KARA GOLDIN: Thank you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Because you make it scary, but you make it-- but somehow through it all I'm like, oh, I feel like I could do that, too.

KARA GOLDIN: It's funny. I'll-- I'll share one super fast that. Guy Kawasaki, who was one of the people who had a pre-read of the book-- he said, can I talk to you for a second? He calls me on the phone, and he said, so why would anyone ever want to be an entrepreneur after reading your book?

And I said, because I'm still smiling, and I appreciate the journey. And I also appreciate the hard times that I've gone through, and I've survived. And I'm better for it, and frankly, the whole manuscript was turned in before the pandemic. I have a book two from the pandemic. I mean, our company has tripled our direct-to-consumer business, over 50% year over year growth.

I had never managed during a pandemic. I've learned so much, but a lot of the challenging times, the 2008 financial crisis, all-- lots of things that didn't really make sense at the time-- the dots eventually connect. And that, for me, is just so, so key.

DYLLAN MCGEE: So is there book two? I hope.

KARA GOLDIN: I don't know yet. I don't know yet, but I just-- well, Dyllan, it's so funny. I mean, maybe we come on, again at some other point. What was depressing for me, the hardest part about writing this book, was that the journal was 600 pages, and so I had to get it down to 200 pages. And I was fighting with my publisher along the way, and there's so many stories that were cut.

And I've been doing a ton of podcasts and talking about a bunch of them along the way, but just crazy things like doing a bookshelf-- I built a bookshelf back in 1996 with Jeff Bezos. Like Jeff Bezos actually built a Home Depot bookshelf with me when they were just a book seller, and, you know-- and again, just a crazy--

DYLLAN MCGEE: Someone's saying we're going to make a movie. Yes, Kara, we're going to make a movie. Let's get book two out there. Everybody, listen to any podcast she is on. Your, again, "Undaunted."

KARA GOLDIN: Thank you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Make sure you get it from your local bookseller or Amazon. We have so much to learn from you, and yes, let's continue the conversation. Thanks for the gift of all that you do, let alone making the world healthy on top of an amazing book. It's just-- you're the gift that keeps giving, Kara.

KARA GOLDIN: I love it. Well, thank you so much, you guys. Hopefully you'll get a chance to have a read or a listen on Audible as well. That was a fun experience.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Or a drink! Go get a Hint drink.

KARA GOLDIN: And a Hint drink, 1,000%.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And a spray, and a chapstick. And we're moving into summer. You need your suntan lotion, too. All right, everybody-- oh. All right, Kara. Thank you.

KARA GOLDIN: Exactly.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I'm sending you a big hug, a MAKERS hug.

KARA GOLDIN: Thanks so much. We'll see you later.