MAKERS@Home with Austin Channing Brown

“What I need is for you to be able to look around and see injustice on your own, without me having to point it out, without me having to teach you." Austin Channing Brown (@austinchanning), best-selling author and executive producer of @tnqshow, gets real with MAKERS' Dyllan McGee (@dyllanmcgee) around centering Black women's experiences to further the fight for intersectional equality. :clap: Watch as they discuss #ImStillHere, being an accomplice, challenging systemic racism, and much more. #MAKERSatHome

Video Transcript

DYLLAN MCGEE: Hi, everyone. I am Dyllan McGee, founder and executive producer of MAKERS. And welcome to "MAKERS at Home." Today, we have Austin Channing Brown. Ah. Austin is a best-selling author, executive producer of an amazing web series. She is a-- you know, a speaker.

I mean, she is one of today's leading brains and speakers around racial justice. So let's get her on. Ah.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Hi.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Hi.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I'm so glad to join y'all today.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I am so happy you're here, Austin Channing Brown.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I'm with MAKERS. I made it, mom. I made it.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Oh my gosh. Yeah, you mean, says the woman who's, like, talked to pretty much every amazing person on the planet. But you're nice to make us feel special today. That's your your special sauce. So we're feeling the love. How are you?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I'm all right. So 2020 is a little-- it's a little strange. It's a little heavy. There's a lot going on.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yeah. It really is.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: But I will say this-- I feel loved, and I feel supported, and I feel seen. And in the middle of a pandemic, that's not a bad way to feel, so.

DYLLAN MCGEE: OK. That gives me some hope. You know, one of the things that I want to talk about today is obviously, you know, an overarching theme of allyship, which we at MAKERS, you know, we-- and you used this word too-- I've is accomplices, right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That's right.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Because it's not just about like, oh, we're friends and I support you. It's like, we're in this together, and I'm going to speak up and I'm going to make a difference.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Totally.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And this conversation about, you know, this crazy world of, you know, thinking that colorblind is, like, the right way, right? So that's another thing. So we're going to get there, right? Because why would we want to be colorblind? Let's celebrate all of our differences. But you and I-- so, speaking of while we are going to celebrate our differences, you and I do have something in common.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: What do we have in common?

DYLLAN MCGEE: We both have gender neutral names.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Tell me how that experience has been for you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Well, I think-- I was just telling our producers before, I think it's a little different, right? For me, my name is Dyllan. There are two L's. My mother thought that would make it more feminine, right? No.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That's hilarious.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Everyone thinks I'm a white male, right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Right.

DYLLAN MCGEE: But it's been a nuisance for me. But what I read in your book-- this has actually been a moment-- so tell me about what it's been like for you. I won't put words in your mouth.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah, no, I-- well at first growing up, I thought that that's all my name indicated, right? That it was not even just gender neutral, right, but that I have a boy's name, right?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right. I should've said it that way. Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: But you know--

DYLLAN MCGEE: And that is a boy's name. Like, everyone thinks we're a white man, right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Exactly. Exactly, right? But as a kid, I hadn't associated with race, right? So I just knew it was a boy's name and was annoyed by that, right? Ugh. Right, like a child, right? Like-- but when I discovered that people assumed that I was a white man, I was like, ugh.

And suddenly it, like, clicked-- like, oh, this is why people feel the need to comment on it. This is why people feel like I'm deceiving them. This is why, you know, like, it made sense-- I was like, oh, this is why people aren't just like, oh, that's interesting. They're like, wait, what?

DYLLAN MCGEE: And tell the story that you tell in your book about the librarian.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Oh my gosh. So this is how-- this is how I figured it out. So we went to the library all the time as kids. And so I was very used to librarians being like, what is happening here? Because we always owed a fine, right? Like, we were the family that had to pay down the fine to check out the next book, you know what I mean?

And so I get to the front of the line, and, I'm, like kind of proud of my fine, right? Ready for her to be like, what's happening here? And she's like, is this your card? I'm like, well, I think so, you know, but it could be my mother's, it could be my brother's. Like, I'm not sure. She says, this says, Austin. Right?

And immediately, like, oh, nuisance, right? You expect me to be a boy. Got it. OK. That's my card. And she responds, are you sure? And I was like, am I sure about my own name? Do you see this stack of books I'm about to check out? Do you see the font on my library card? How could you think that I do not know my own-- right? Like-- my childish wisdom. I was like, what is happening right now?

I marched over to my mother, and was like, wow, why did you give me this name? Right, just totally annoyed-- what were you thinking? And she says, Austin, if you had been a boy, you would've been a junior. But we never figured out a girl's name. And so when we were just sort of, like, rattling names off in the hospital, we landed on Austin, and we loved it immediately, because we knew anyone who met you who just, like, saw your name-- saw your name on an application but hadn't met you yet would assume you are a white man. And she said, we just wanted to get you to the interview. And I was like, OK.

[LAUGHTER]

DYLLAN MCGEE: You were like, I still don't get it, right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I mean, the only application I had filled out was probably for the library card, right? Like, I don't know anything about an application or an interview, you know? But it suddenly made sense. Like, oh, people aren't just expecting me to be a boy. Like, they're expecting me to be a white man. And this, friends, is what they get. You know what I mean?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Aren't they lucky?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Oh, I-- like, something did click, right? I didn't fully understand at that age, but something was, like, oh, got it.

DYLLAN MCGEE: See, your mom is cool. I'm not saying my mom isn't cool. My mom was very cool. But she did not do it for those cool reasons. Like, there wasn't that much intention behind it, Austin. Wait, so you have a two-year-old, right? What did name him?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I do. So I don't say his name--

DYLLAN MCGEE: Oh, that's right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Because of all the hate I receive, I would just hate for it to go to him.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Totally.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: But I will say that his name-- his first name is very quote unquote "American." And his middle name is a little more, shall we say, hood, cool, got a little swag. And so we call him by his middle name.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Oh you do? Oh, and that was-- that just happened for him?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah, it was intentional.

DYLLAN MCGEE: OK. I love it. So tell us just a little bit, for those of the MAKERS audience who, if they don't know about you, they should. And they better be. But tell us just a little bit about you.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So I tell my parents all the time that they decided what my career would be the minute they named me. Obviously, I'm going to talk about race and gender for the rest of my life. That's what it's going to be.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Austin, that's actually interesting. I've never made that connection. My mother didn't have intention, but here I am talking about gender. OK. Keep going.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Just saying.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Just saying. Keep going. I like it.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Just saying. It might be in the name. There's something magical happening there.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Uh oh, I named my kids Max and Henry. What was I thinking? OK. All right.

[LAUGHTER]

[INAUDIBLE] more [INAUDIBLE]

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Is it too late? Can we rename them?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Renaming. We're doing it right now. They have no idea what's about to happen. OK, all right, keep going. Tell us about you.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yes. So I've had lots and lots of jobs. So I've had a lot of jobs in, like, the church nonprofit world. I've worked with young people. I've worked with homelessness and housing. I've worked on sort of, like, volunteer training operations kind of stuff.

But I just really hit my stride when it came to talking about diversity and inclusion, but in ways that don't require me to wear a button-down shirt and a pencil skirt. You know, I do not-- I do not stand up and, like, hand out a quiz and go through definitions of terms.

DYLLAN MCGEE: You mean you make it all accessible and fun and engaging? Maybe?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Maybe.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yeah.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Maybe. I really think-- so I really think that the idea of race is ridiculous, right? So culture-- beautiful. But this idea that white people are innately superior and that Black people are innately inferior, that's ridiculous.

DYLLAN MCGEE: That's messed up, I'd say.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Right? And because it's so [MUTED] up, I think it deserves to be, like, laughed about. So there is a lot of storytelling. There's a lot of contemporary references to pop culture. There's a lot of humor. When I give, like, a workshop or something, I am, like, this close to counting how many times I can make people laugh.

I have this-- like, this is so ridiculous. Like, if we're not laughing about this, I don't know what we're doing. And the second thing I'm really, really passionate about when I enter any space is that I center the women of color in the room as opposed to centering the white people in a room, right?

Because often what happens in a diversity training is all the people of color have to, like, get on board. We have to get on the same page. We have to be willing to tell the same story, tell our same, like, pain points, show all of our scars, prove that we're human so that all the white people in the room will get it.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I mean, can I tell you something? So there is an amazing woman-- I probably shouldn't say her name. There's an amazing woman on our MAKERS board, and she works for this huge, huge company. And you know, everything happens in 2020, and she says-- she's a black woman, I should say-- and she says, you know what? All the sudden, like, here I am servicing the white people in my company.

Like, all my people need me. And here I am, like, approving memos. Here I am-- am I saying the right things? Like, you know, she's like, I needed to center the Black individuals in my company and not focus on the white people.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I think that there is a great value in, like, white people having, like, an aha moment. Like, that's fantastic. But the truth is is that it's people of color who are figuring out how to navigate systems that were not made for us. So if I'm going to have a training, I am going to structure it so that the Black folks in the room would want to come back if I did it a second time, right?

That's my definition of success. Did the people of color feel affirmed? Did people of color feel like I spoke to their needs? Did people of color understand all of my references? Did people-- do you know what I mean?

DYLLAN MCGEE: There's also-- I mean, I don't know if you-- but you're teaching to different levels, right? So one of the problems that's happening right now with this conversation around diversity, equity, and inclusion is that, like, the white people are here, right? So when you're-- but you're having to navigate-- but you're not dumbing it down.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I'm not anymore.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Once upon a time, I would have-- I would have structured-- not would have, I did. Once upon a time, I structured them as, like, well here's the 101, and here's the 201, and here's the 3-1. Right, so now people can plug themselves in at whatever level they think they belong to, right?

Now, I just be like, catch up. Catch up. That's what Google is for. Like, I'm going to stand and I'm going to say all these things. And if at some point you get confused, one, there will be a Q&A. So we can revisit something.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right. Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Way over my head, right-- so write it down. But if we still don't get time to-- like, I didn't pull this stuff, like, from-- there is very little that I'm doing that's original. And that's the honest to goodness truth. There is very little that I'm doing that's original. That back stack of books right there--

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yeah.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: You know what I'm saying?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That stack of books right there. That's why I know what I'm talking about. And you can read them too.

DYLLAN MCGEE: But, Austin-- but I'm still shocked. We situate ourselves within all of these companies, and it's still-- how can it be so 101? This is a revelation for me that, like, we don't have to be 101.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: No. No.

DYLLAN MCGEE: It's like--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Because people of color don't get to be 101.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: When we walk into those companies, we have to catch up. So whether we have seen "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" or not, we better laugh.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right. Right. Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Like, whether we go skiing, sailing, have a second vacation home-- whether those things are a part of our life or not, we better smile and nod.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Oh my god. Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So if I have to catch up in my daily life, the least white people could do is catch up for my hour-long training.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right. Oh my gosh. OK, all right, this is getting good. OK, all right, so I just-- I want to keep at MAKERS women-- I just want to keep showing these images-- this web series and this book-- because, yeah, catch up, people.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Catch up.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Two ways too, but in this. OK.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: So the next question is-- this web series is-- it's just, like, addictive viewing. And you've interviewed, you know, heroes like Rachel Cargle, Brene Brown, Hannah Nicole Smith. But there is-- one thing that I really want to read to-- like, when I was watching-- I mean, why did I say Hannah Nicole Smith? Oh my god, Jones, sorry.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Nicole Hannah Jones.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Nicole Hannah Jones, I got it. I've only been--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: It's a lot of names.

DYLLAN MCGEE: OK. Well, part of why-- by the way-- well, anyway, I'm not-- we're going to go there next. OK, so one of the episodes with Brene Brown--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yes, it was so good.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I mean, OK, so-- but I'm going to read-- I have to read this quote to you. Because one of the things that you were talking about is this armor that Black women have to wear, right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yes.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And the reality is that Brene Brown is talking about being vulnerable, and that's good. And we all want to be vulnerable and we all grow by being vulnerable. But that sometimes isn't something that Black women can do. Because this armor has been protecting Black women in the workplace, in the world. So she said--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That's right.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And so she said-- well, so, first of all, just react on that, and then I want to read a quote.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So I have been in love with Brene Brown since the "Gifts of Imperfection" came out, right? So long before "Daring Greatly" and you know, all the others that she has become really famous for. When I read the "Gifts of Imperfection," I was like, is she following me around? What is happening?

And there was a portion in her book that was talking about playfulness and goofiness and being able to be free. And I thought, oh my god, that sounds amazing. I want to be playful. Like, I am so serious, and I want to be playful. And then immediately, I thought, there is no place in my workplace where I could be playful.

There's no way. I would ruin it for other Black women. I would be considered incompetent. I would be pulled into the office. Like, white people get to be playful and still be considered competent. I don't get to do that. And ever since, I have been like, oh my god, I need to have a conversation with Brene now.

[LAUGHTER]

I need to talk to her. This was years ago, right-- like, years ago.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Years ago.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: But I finally got the chance to say, Brene, what do women of color do who are resonating with the desire to be vulnerable and playful and live wholeheartedly, but we're not allowed? Is your book ultimately just for white women?

DYLLAN MCGEE: And.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: And she said, well, I hope not.

[LAUGHTER]

Right? That's [INAUDIBLE] I don't want it to be, right? But the truth is is that Brene has done enough of the work to know that what I'm saying is true, right, and that there is no shortcut. Brene doesn't have a shortcut in her back pocket for how women of color can suddenly become.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Well, but here-- I want to read-- now I want to read this--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yes, do it.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Because this is for all my white sisters out there. Listen to what I'm saying. OK, here we go. The most organic ally for women of color taking off armor and showing up authentically should be white women.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: It should. It should. I mean, it just makes sense. But here's the rub. White women know what it's like to be judged, to be held to a different standard, to not be paid well, to be told we're incompetent, to be judged based on how we look, right? White women know what this is like.

But white women have the option of tapping into their whiteness, right? And so it is always a question of which direction white women will go.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yes.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: And too often, what white women ultimately decide is that they're going to be nice to women of color. But what is more important is that they indulge the power that they can access through whiteness.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Be an accomplice. It is not enough to just-- I mean, it's not enough. It's not enough to just say, I support. And also, publicly, there's a lot that happens-- here is a-- again, white women pals out there, we can't be safe.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That's right. Throw it out the window.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Safety is gone. Get uncomfortable. Take risks. You know, and-- you know, and no-- I go back to that board member who said, you know what? She was lifting up all of the white men and women at her company--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That's right.

DYLLAN MCGEE: To make them feel good about what they were doing. But they need to get uncomfortable and make mistakes and write a memo that has a flaw in it.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So let me give-- let me give you two examples. So example number one is like-- these are going to be pre-pandemic--

[LAUGHTER]

Assuming one day we will not be in a pandemic anymore.

DYLLAN MCGEE: OK.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So pre-pandemic examples. One, so let's put that board-- let's put ourselves in a board meeting, right? And the Black woman stands up-- her name is Austin-- she stands up, and she starts giving her presentation, right? And five minutes into her presentation, all the white men in the room are like, now, wait a minute, but wait-- but didn't you just say-- but you know, our company can't-- but have you thought about, right? And the two white women in the room are going-- can I get you some water?

Right? Like they're being very nice. They are not participating in what is happening, right? But all they are being is nice, right? And then they come up afterwards and say, you know, that was just really awful. I just want you to know that I see you. And then get mad when I'm like, that is not helpful to me. Right? That has changed nothing.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Nothing.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Right? What I want is a co-conspirator, right? What I want is an accomplice who will stop the meeting and say, hey, listen, guys, I am realizing that we have interrupted Austin three times in, like, less than 10 minutes, and we didn't do that to anybody else.

So could we all take a step back and let Austin finish her thought, and then we can jump in with any questions we have? Kapeesh? Right?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yes.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That is helpful, but it's also brave, right? That isn't about being nice. That is about being brave. And that is what Black women need. The truth is, Dyllan, we have friends.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yes, right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: We--

[LAUGHTER]

We are not, like, lonely individuals. Like, I have girlfriends who I am absolutely going to call, and they are going to say, girl, I see you. And I'm going to be like, thank you, honey. Right? That ain't what I need from the white women.

DYLLAN MCGEE: No.

[LAUGHTER]

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That's not-- I don't need a coffee cake. I don't need a bottle of water. I don't need-- you know what I'm saying? I don't need a piece of cake. Like, I don't need it. I don't need it. What I need is for you to be able to look around and see injustice on your own without me having to point it out, without me having to teach you. I need you to look around and ask yourself, are the women of color being treated as equally as the white men?

DYLLAN MCGEE: Can I add a nuance?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yes.

DYLLAN MCGEE: OK, there's your example. Now here is-- you know, listen, there's no one right way, right? But--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: No, there's a million ways to participate.

DYLLAN MCGEE: What I'm also starting to see now-- and I don't know if you're experiencing this-- in even these Zoom environments--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Is everyone's like, oh, I'm going to be an accomplice. I'm going to speak up. But the way that white women are speaking up is the, oh my god, Austin, that was so brilliant what you just said-- oh my, like, overcompensation. Is that crazy of me to say that? Because that doesn't help either. That's almost insulting. Like, in many ways, like, oh my god, Austin, you wouldn't have a brilliant thing, but I'm going to make it extra-- I don't know. Right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So there is--

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

There's strategy, right? And this is something that actually Barack Obama's team used to do. So when the women were in the same meeting, they would-- they would amen one another. So one woman would say, you know, I think we should have medical care for all, right? And another woman would be like, I think that's a brilliant idea. Could you expand more on that? Right?

And then the next woman would be like, oh, and you know what? I think we should push this one step farther. I think-- right, strategy around thinking, around competency, around building on one another, right? That is helpful.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I once had an advocate who advocated so hard on my behalf that it ended up looking to my supervisor like I was even less competent because I needed his advocacy. Right? So it's a really fine line.

DYLLAN MCGEE: It's a fine line.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: It's a fine line. And you have to be self-aware. And you have to check in. And you have to think about-- you have to be honest about what the dynamics-- the unjust dynamics are where you live, where you work, where you volunteer. Let me give you another example.

DYLLAN MCGEE: OK.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So I'm up giving a speech, someone asks me, so when you're at work, like, do you want to be known as the Black girl or, like, called a black girl? Like, does that-- is there any rub in that for you? And I'm like, huh, no.

[LAUGHTER]

Uh uh.

[LAUGHTER]

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

Then a black woman stands up and she says-- and she starts to contradict everything I just said. I'm like-- I revert to white supremacy, right? I'm like, you are ripping apart everything I just said. Like, we are supposed to be on the same page. I'm, like, you and I are, like, one of three black women in this room. What is happening right now? Right?

[LAUGHTER]

It's all falling apart. And then, right, I pause, I step back, I listen-- I listen to what she is saying. And here's the aha moment I have as she's speaking-- where I worked, it was so heavy with whiteness but so interested in diversity that I needed to say-- I needed to push against the culture with my blackness, right? I needed to say this is not the only way to present. This is not the only way to speak. This is not the only way to tell a story. This is-- right? I needed that. And so being, like, the black woman was not a problem for me.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yeah, yeah.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: For her in a very corporate setting, she was only known as the black woman. So she was never the intelligent one. She was never the creative one. She was never the one you wanted to call for advice. She was-- right, all she was was the black co-worker.

And so for her, what her allies, what her co-conspirators needed was not to talk about her braids, right, and emphasize her blackness. What she needed was to be told that her ideas are brilliant.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Right? And she's deserving of the promotion. And that-- right? And so our allies have to be critical of the systems in which they participate. And that's a hard thing to do, especially when you love where you work. Because it's been good to you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right. But it's so important. And on top of that, Austin, it's-- it's nuanced, right? There's no--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: There is no one size fits all.

DYLLAN MCGEE: There's no one size fits all. There's no check list. I love that story. There's no-- you can't give a checklist of how to do this.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Can't do it.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I think the way to get to it authentically is also just, instead of looking at, what do I do and how do I act and what-- it's just learned, right? Understand what it means-- you know, what it means to be a black woman. You know, again, go back to your stack of books. Go back to-- you know, then it will come naturally.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Exactly.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And when you understand that system-- like, that--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yes.

DYLLAN MCGEE: [INAUDIBLE] system. And you may not even be aware of it, and this company may have been good to you, but there is a system that exists that you may not have known about. But now look at that system.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Exactly. And that is why anti-racist educators are always like, read, learn, like, take in this information. It's not because we don't want to teach you, right? It's because there's so much information to catch up on. And that information is transformative.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Right.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: That information is transformative. It will transform you. It will transform your world view. And you will begin to look at your family dynamics differently. You'll begin to look at your work dynamics differently. You will pay attention in ways that you haven't had to pay attention to before because the system worked for you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Yes. Can you believe we're out of time?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: No.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Can you believe that?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: So fast.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I know, and so good. OK.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: All right.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Well, but you know, the good thing is that people can get more, like, right? Like, this is-- you know, someone in the-- people kept saying, listen, right? Listen. Read. Learn. Listen. Listen. Oh my gosh. And listen to your voice reading this too. The audiobook is so good.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: So we have to end on-- we have-- we have a big-- at MAKERS women, we have a documentary coming out called "Not Done." It's on PBS. And it's coming out the week before the election.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Oh my gosh. OK.

DYLLAN MCGEE: And so you know, one of the things that we're doing is showing over the-- you know, the women's movement, even in the past five years-- from the past election to today--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Sure.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Look at how little it-- while so much has happened and things have gone mainstream, we are not done.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: I'm wondering, like, what your parting not done, voting, that bucket-- last bit of advice might be to all of us.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Yeah.

DYLLAN MCGEE: That's a big question.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I think a lot of us are reeling from-- particularly those of us who are liberal, and I'm assuming many MAKERS women are-- [INAUDIBLE] reeling from a presidency that looked like Barack Obama's to a presidency that looks like Donald Trump's, right?

And as a result of that, like, what is happening right now, there are lots of different things that we all want. Some of us really wanted to return to the Barack Obama days. Some of us really want some Elizabeth Warren in our lives. Some of us really want, like, more spirituality or more grounding, more rootedness, more-- right? But we only get to pick one candidate.

[LAUGHTER]

DYLLAN MCGEE: You're the best. You are the best.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: We can have a lot of grief about that.

DYLLAN MCGEE: We can.

[LAUGHTER]

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: But we've got a candidate, y'all.

DYLLAN MCGEE: It's just the facts, right?

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Right? Right? And so I think my parting words would be to recognize that even with the next candidacy, we're not done. Right? We're not done. We're all going to vote, and then we will still have work to do. And so if becoming more like Barack Obama's presidency is what you're hopeful for, we're going to still have to work for that.

And if what you wanted was Elizabeth Warren and more progressiveness, then we're going to have to work for that. And, right? But that even after the election, our work is not done. And so, yes, we can grieve what we wanted or the candidate who we wish we had.

But at the end of the day, we have to acknowledge where we are, and we have to recognize that the election is not the end. The election is another beginning. And I hope that that is helpful for those who are grieving, and rightfully so.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Another beginning-- what a nice way to end this. All right, well, if you don't-- I don't know if you can feel this through the screen, but my heart is, like, leaping out I love you so much.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: I love MAKERS so much, so I'm so glad that I got to hang out with you.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Well, this is just the beginning. I know you said you have a lot of friends, but you're going to have to, like, carve out one more little spot--

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Going to make room.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

DYLLAN MCGEE: Maybe. Maybe. All right, Austin Channing Brown, sending you love and thank you for being with us today. You're just such a delight.

AUSTIN CHANNING BROWN: Bye, y'all.

DYLLAN MCGEE: Bye.