The Allure Podcast: Gemma Chan on Aging, Self-Acceptance, and Being a Kid of the '90s
Michelle Lee:
Hi everyone. It's Michelle Lee, editor in chief of Allure, and today my guest is the wonderful Gemma Chan. Hi, Gemma.
Gemma Chan:
Hi!
Michelle Lee:
How are you?
Gemma Chan:
I am very good, thank you.
Michelle Lee:
As I was telling you, our first guest on this podcast was Awkwafina, and everyone who is kind of listening to these in order knows that I am such a huge fan girl of Crazy Rich Asians, and not just because I love it as a movie, but because of what it meant for the Asian community and also just for culture in general. So I'm super happy for you to be here and to talk about that.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, thank you for having me.
Michelle Lee:
But I also feel like, you know, knowing a bit about your background and everything, you have such an interesting background. And obviously you had success in acting before Crazy Rich Asians, and you have some amazing things coming up. But I definitely want to delve into how you started, how you grew up. Where did you grow up?
Gemma Chan:
So I was born in London, and I grew up in kind of suburban London, in Kent, which is kind of southeast of London. So I kind of had countryside on one side, the city on the other. And yeah, kind of a very, very suburban environment.
Michelle Lee:
What is your ethnicity?
Gemma Chan:
I'm Chinese.
Michelle Lee:
Mm-hmm.
Gemma Chan:
My mom was born in China, and she grew up in Scotland. And my dad was born in Macau. He grew up in Hong Kong. Then he had a kind of crazy life before he settled down and had kids and married my mom. But he ended up going to college in Scotland, where he met my mom. And then they moved down to London and had my sister and I.
Michelle Lee:
Ohhhh.
Gemma Chan:
So, yeah, it's Chinese both sides.
Michelle Lee:
Do you feel like growing up, did you have an either traditional British upbringing or do you feel like you had a traditional Asian upbringing or was it a mix of everything?
Gemma Chan:
I think it was a real mix. I mean, I definitely feel...very English, very British. But also, there were elements of my upbringing that were very, very Chinese as well. You know, my mom and dad, they spoke both Cantonese and English to me at home until I was three years old, and then they decided to only speak English to me. So my Cantonese is developed — well, basically stunted its development at the age of a three-year-old.
Michelle Lee:
(laughing)
Gemma Chan:
So I've got really very [laughs] basic, childish Cantonese. But yeah, I went to Chinese school when I was younger. My mom — I didn't want to go, but my mom and dad made me go every Sunday to learn how to write.
Michelle Lee:
Do you still remember how to write?
Gemma Chan:
I remember like the odd ... I can write my name, my Chinese name. I can write "tree" — uh, I think. (laughing) But it's quite hard. If you don't use it all the time, it's very difficult to retain it. But yeah, I definitely feel like I've grown up between worlds, really. And it's taken me some time to kind of feel, you know, completely at ease with that. I feel like I embrace that now. I very much want to explore. Since, basically since I've come out of my teenage years, I'm really interested in exploring my cultural heritage. And I really feel what's happening in the world is really exciting now. I feel that we really can embrace the fact, you know, all of us who are living in the Asian diaspora, we can embrace being American and British, but also our Asian roots.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah. Growing up, was the area that you were in quite diverse, or did you feel like...?
Gemma Chan:
No, not diverse really at all. I think there were just a handful of kids in my school. I think, yeah, I can't really ... Yeah, I think we had, uh, in my primary school class I was the only Asian. We had one black boy in my class. And that was it. So I grew up in a very white environment, actually.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah. Same with me. And I think that —
Gemma Chan:
Whereabouts did you grow up?
Michelle Lee:
I grew up in Connecticut. And so I was in Connecticut until I was 16, in a super not-diverse area. And I always talk about now how that affected me today, not only just as a person, but also as an editor. That I feel like because I grew up without diversity, and I always felt like the "other," I think...
Gemma Chan:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Lee:
...that now I'm in a position and I have a platform, I feel like it's been really important for me to be able to present other people's stories and stuff who have been underrepresented.
Gemma Chan:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Lee:
How do you think growing up in a not-diverse area — how do you think that that's affected you?
Gemma Chan:
Well, I think initially, as you say, when you're little — I don't want to speak for everyone else, but when I was younger, you know, you just want to fit in. So actually feeling different makes you feel a bit awkward. I felt a little bit self-conscious at times, you know, had a few occasions, which you know it happens with kids, where kids made fun of, you know, my Asian features and my eyes. You know, that's what kids do. And I remember just wishing I wasn't different. And 'cause I didn't feel different really, but other people occasionally treated me — you know, it became obvious that wasn't white.
But I suppose now I've realized that actually what makes you different can be your strength. And also, as you say, like with you, I now feel aware of my platform. And I think it's so important that we use it in a way to, as you say, allow people that haven't been represented very well, or they've been sidelined or ignored in the past, that we now have the door open and embrace all of us, 'cause we're all humans.
Michelle Lee:
It's funny. We were talking about this before you guys got here, about I think in this country we tend to be so American-centric that even when we were talking about Crazy Rich Asians, like a lot of people were like, "Oh, because it's the first Asian American movie." Right? And people kinda kept phrasing it that way. But then I was like, "But wait, you guys are Asian British." And, like, there are so many different—
Gemma Chan:
Asian Australians.
Michelle Lee:
Asian Australian, exactly.
Gemma Chan:
Malaysian Asians. (laughs)
Michelle Lee:
As you've traveled the world, and also promoting the movie, like how — this is such a weird question. But how do you think growing up as British Asian versus Asian American, like what are those differences that you've been seeing?
Gemma Chan:
Well, I'll start with the similarities actually, 'cause when I arrived on set, I felt that immediately I had a connection with everyone in the cast. So obviously they're Asian Americans, Australian Asians. Ronny Chieng grew up in, uh, Malaysia. I felt there was this instant — we all just got it. We had a shorthand immediately. Yeah, I feel that we've all had, to a certain extent, similar experiences to varying degrees. And that's been great. But I think that yeah, we have a lot in common with each other.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah. So as I was reading about your background, I feel like you have so many interesting things in your background. You were a violinist. You were a nationally ranked swimmer, correct?
Gemma Chan:
(laughing) Oh, God. This is a long, long time ago. (laughing)
Michelle Lee:
Back in your childhood, like when you think about when you were in grade school or middle school, what did you want to be when you grew up?
Gemma Chan:
Gosh, uh, there's so many things I wanted to do. Um, I wanted to work with dolphins. I wanted to be a marine biologist at one point, a dog walker at one point, an astrophysicist.
Michelle Lee:
Whoa!
Gemma Chan:
Um, I loved —
Michelle Lee:
When I was a kid, I don't think I knew what that was. (laughing)
Gemma Chan:
God, I'm showing my geeky side. No, I loved — I still do really love cosmology, and all of that stuff, I think it gives you a kind of perspective on our place in the universe. But I realized quite quickly, I did physics for A level at school, and I realized I wasn't quite clever enough to do that. (laughing) But yeah, an astronaut. I wanted to go work for NASA. So, so many different things.
And I suppose, actually in many ways, I liked the idea of playing all these different roles or living these different lives, which I kinda get to do to a little extent in my acting career, which is nice.
Michelle Lee:
That's so fun. So we talked a little bit about the lack of diversity where you grew up. I mean, you are gorgeous, obviously. At what point did you feel...beautiful? Was there a point in time where you either didn't feel beautiful, or at what point did that start for you?
Gemma Chan:
Oh, thank you. I guess it was during — I had very awkward teenage years. The years between being a child, when you're quite cute, which I think's the same for everyone, and then to actually being, you know, looking a bit more adult, I mean, yeah. And also the time I grew up, I mean, the fashions were, I mean ... I look back now, and I had a lot of fun. Like Mickey Mouse kinda cycling shorts, neon — all of that stuff.
Michelle Lee:
Do you think of yourself as a child of the '90s?
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
Okay.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Michelle Lee:
Like it's so funny 'cause I grew up, and I technically was a child in the '80s, but I think I identify more with the '90s — 'cause those were like my formative years.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
And like, I don't know, I kinda miss some of those styles.
Gemma Chan:
(laughs)
Michelle Lee:
I feel like now it's —
Gemma Chan:
Let's bring them back. (laughs)
Michelle Lee:
Now it's coming back. I think people are doing like the lip liner and the brown lipstick again.
Gemma Chan:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Lee:
And I honestly —
Gemma Chan:
Thin brows may come —
Michelle Lee:
I did — well, maybeee. We'll see.
Gemma Chan:
(laughs) I don't want to overpluck my brows again.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
I should've listened to my mom the first time.
Michelle Lee:
I did.
Gemma Chan:
She's like, "Don't overpluck your brows."
Michelle Lee:
When you were in middle school or high school, were you experimenting with your look already? Like were you getting into grunge? Were you —
Gemma Chan:
I tried a bit of everything, as you do when you're a teenager and you haven't quite found — you don't know what your style is yet. I remember hanging out with kids who were a bit older than me from my swimming club and feeling ... I definitely didn't feel like I was attractive, not attractive to the opposite sex in any way. I suppose I started to feel more comfortable in my own skin kind of through my university years. And then, yeah, it's — I think it's a gradual, gradual process of just learning to accept yourself and then learning to work with what you've got. And then also just not worrying too much about your appearance. I think I love beauty. I love products. I love fashion. And it's all great fun, but I think, you know, I also think what's — looking after what's on the inside is as important, and they should kinda go hand-in-hand.
Michelle Lee:
Yep. Definitely.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
Thinking back about your childhood, what was one of your earliest memories of beauty? Like was your mom really into makeup and skin care? Did you dive into your grandma's stuff? What were your memories of beauty back then?
Gemma Chan:
My first memories of beauty.... Well, my mom had a really great '80s perm of different types. So she had that whole kind of poodle perm. And then when it was, like, the kind of Princess Di years; she had that Princess Diana cut.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, she — you know what? She had some really strong looks. When I look back at pictures, she was rocking those looks.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Um, yeah, the kind of glossy red lipstick she did, and the blue eye shadow. And, yeah. I mean, she's gorgeous, my mom. She's, yeah, she's a strong ... yeah, she's one of my role models.
Michelle Lee:
Oh, that's awesome. Is your mom one of the Asian ladies who you feel like never ages? (laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, no, totally. People think we're sisters when we're out together.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah. Same with my mom. I feel like it's good to look forward and to look at my mom and my grandmother. And we've got really good genes. (laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Yeah! Asian don't raisin.
Michelle Lee:
(laughing) Exactly. What was your idea of beauty when you were growing up? I think, again, like me, thinking about the '80s and '90s, I feel like it was TV and watching Beverly Hills 90210 and looking at supermodels. There was Kate Moss and Cindy Crawford. What were your images of what you thought was beautiful back then?
Gemma Chan:
I guess it was quite a...narrow view. And it was a very kind of Amazonian, you know, very white, very classically that kind of supermodel beauty is what I grew up looking at. Those are the advertisements that I grew up being surrounded by. So you had to be, you know, it was kind of perfection, was what was really being kinda sold.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah, definitely. When was the first time you saw you were self-reflected back? Not you literally, but was there an Asian woman who was represented on TV or in a movie or in an advertisement that you saw that you were like, "(gasp) Finally!"
Gemma Chan:
I remember always being ... I would really notice when I saw someone Asian in an advert or an Asian model. It really stood out to me. Like I remember I would watch Ally McBeal and Lucy Liu and just being like, "She's incredible." And just you hold onto those people because they were so few and far between.
Michelle Lee:
Yep.
Gemma Chan:
Michelle Yeoh, obviously.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah. Ugh! Love!
Gemma Chan:
Wonderful Michelle Yeoh. I watched- watched her movies.
I guess...they were few and far between. And also, I supposed you always- there was an element of is this just- is it a token kind of Asian person? I don't know. I feel like it's really only very recently that we've- we've kind of- properly feel like we've- we've arrived and we are here; we're seen and accepted in a way that we haven't been before. It- it feels like, and it's- it's really just in the last couple years.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah, I agree.
Gemma Chan:
Do you feel that way?
Michelle Lee:
It's a little crazy because I, definitely in the past, even six months, have had so many conversations about Lucy Liu, who I feel like we need to get her on this podcast too, 'cause she is like this pivotal person. And when I think back about the past even 20 years, I can maybe only think of a handful of prominent Asians who I can remember onscreen.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
And then now, with the past year, year and a half or so, there's so many.
Gemma Chan:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Lee:
So I think it's- it's amazing.
Gemma Chan:
I feel like even though they may have been, you know, doing incredible work, whether it's in a TV show or in a film, they weren't given the kind of platform or exposure to push them to that level in the same [way] that their counterparts, their- their non person-of-color counterparts had. So, you know, whether that's magazine covers or- or whatever it is, or- or campaigns, I just think, yeah, I- I feel like we're moving in the right direction now, which is-
Michelle Lee:
Absolutely! Well, I think, back in the day, it used to all be about, like, martial arts movies, right?
Gemma Chan:
Yes! Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
So it was like Crouching Tiger, and that was sort of like the gateway.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
And then now, we're in this awesome place of where you can have Asian actors being, like, anything.
Michelle Lee:
So I want to go back, actually a couple years, to- about you going to law school.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
So going back there, like, you know, you were talking about being an astrophysicist. You were talking about like, you know, working with dolphins. What led you to want to study law?
Gemma Chan:
Well, to a certain extent, my- my parents had the thing of, you know, the proper jobs are: doctor, lawyer, accountant. (laughs) But I, luckily, I- I was interested in law, and, um, and I thought, "Why not?" You know, people- people need lawyers. And then I went and I did my degree. And I did enjoy the academic challenge of it. There were certain areas that I- of law, that I was more interested in than others. I quickly realized I wasn't that interested in the kind of corporate law world, which is where I had a job lined up. But you know, I'm still really interested in it. I'm still interested in human rights law, public international law. Um, it's- it's a really tough field.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
And criminal law, I really liked as well. But I kind of felt that I didn't- (laughs) didn't want to have the responsibility of someone else's freedom or not on my shoulders.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Like if I'm onstage and I muck up a line, the worst that's gonna happen is, yeah, I might get a bad review or whatever. But if I'm in court and you're standing up doing it and you- you mess it up, that's- that's someone's-
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
You know, someone's gonna be incarcerated. So I was just like, "God, I can't deal with that." Um, so, yeah, that's-
Michelle Lee:
At what point did you realize you didn't want to do that?
Gemma Chan:
I think I knew fairly early on. Like probably my first year, I just thought, This- I'm enjoying studying it, but I don't think I want to practice it.
Michelle Lee:
And did you finish law school?
Gemma Chan:
I finished. So we study law as an undergraduate. So I- I studied it from-
Michelle Lee:
Ohhhh.
Gemma Chan:
... 18 to 21. So I did a three-year law degree.
Michelle Lee:
Got it.
Gemma Chan:
And I did finish.
Michelle Lee:
And then at what point did you tell your parents, "I'm not gonna do this"?
Gemma Chan:
I only told my mom and dad that I wasn't going to take up the job at the law firm when I'd already secretly applied to drama school and got into drama center. Yeah, so I sat them down. I said, "I'm not gonna ... Sorry, guys. (laughs) I'm not gonna become a lawyer. I'm- I'm gonna train to be an actress." And it- and it went down about as well as you might imagine. (laughing)
Michelle Lee:
So, terribly. (laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Yeah. They were- you know, I- I completely understand why they were fearful and upset, because, you know, I don't come from a show-biz family. We have no connections to anyone in the business. They knew that they wouldn't be able to help me. Yeah, they were worried. Um, you know, my dad said to me, "It doesn't matter how good you are, how talented you are, you're not going to find enough work." And that's really like, you know, I finished drama school 10 years ago now, so I've been working for 10 years. But back then, you know, there really weren't that many Asian faces on stage or screen in the U.K.
Michelle Lee:
Do you think it's been more recently or was it only the first couple of years? Like at what point do you think that his mind started to change about things?
Gemma Chan:
I think after- I remember right at the beginning. I- I did- I was very fortunate that I started to work. I did like every job going, like, you know, one-line parts, whatever. I was like, "I just want to get as much experience as I can." Every time I'd get a job and I'd be on the job, my dad would- I'd speak to- go home and see my mom and dad and they'd be like, "So what's next?" Which is like the worst thing that an actor wants to hear.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
It's like, "I haven't even finished this job yet, Mom. (laughs) I don't know what I'm gonna be doing next." But I think it was maybe after four or five years that that kind of anxiety, of worrying about whether I had a job lined up next, that whole being self-employed thing. They're pretty chilled about it now.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
Which is good.
Michelle Lee:
Well, they must be- they must be so proud now.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, they are. They're incredibly proud. They, um- you know, my mom and dad, I took them to the London premiere of Crazy Rich Asians, and they were so, so, so proud. And I spoke to my mom just after the film finished, and she was really- you know, she was in tears. She was really emotional. And she said, "Gemma, I heard, you know, early on in the soundtrack there was a song that they play, which I haven't heard since my childhood." And it's a song- it's an old Chinese folk song that my mom used to sing. Well, her mom used to sing to her dad. And they're long, long passed away now. And she said she never, never expected to hear that in a mainstream Hollywood film. So yeah, that's what it means to people. That's what it's meant to so many that I've spoken to.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
That they feel seen. That's-
Michelle Lee:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Gemma Chan:
That's the power of representation. Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
Did you, when you were first starting out, could you ever have imagined this happening now, like you being in this particular place? Did you have- like when you first started out, did you have really big aspirations? What were your thoughts back then?
Gemma Chan:
I just hoped that I'd be able to pay my bills and just keep working. 'Cause I thought, I can't- (laughs) I can't go back to, you know, live with my mom and dad and be like, "Oh, God, I just ... " You know, at the beginning of my acting career, I was so worried that I- I did every- I did loads of jobs on the side as well. I worked in a pub. I stocked shelves in booths. I worked as a lifeguard, when I was [a] student. Like I've always done loads of other random jobs on the side. And I suppose that's something I'm really lucky I got from my parents, is that work ethic of: “Don't ever expect that you're gonna be given things. You're gonna have to work really, really, really hard.”
Michelle Lee:
Okay so, flash forward. You get the phone call or you get an email or whatever from your agent about Crazy Rich Asians...
Gemma Chan:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Lee:
Can you kind of walk us through that moment? Like, you know, give us, I guess, a little bit of a background of what you had been doing at the time and this falls in your lap. Was it a long audition process? Was it something where you just met with them and they were like, "She's it!" Like how did this all come about?
Gemma Chan:
Well, I was in London and I got a call from my agent. So I think I got an email from my agent saying, "Oh, they've started auditioning for- holding auditions for Crazy Rich Asians. Are you interested in going up for it? They'd love to see you." And it was actually a really straightforward process. I went on tape in London. The tape got sent off into the ether, and you never know if you're gonna hear anything back or not. And then we heard quite quickly that, um- that John liked the tape, and Nina, the producer, liked the tape. And then I flew out to L.A., and I met them. And then they offered me the part. It was one of the most straightforward castings I think I've ever had. Like usually you have to jump through so many hoops and do multiple rounds. But yeah, I think it was just...synergy from as soon as we met, really. Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
That's amazing. Wow! Well, I feel like you play- I mean, that role of Astrid, I feel like you have this regal-like air (laughs) about you. Do you feel like ... Like where does that come from? (laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Oh, my gosh!
Michelle Lee:
I feel like you are- you come across as so sophisticated-
Gemma Chan:
I-
Michelle Lee:
... and so-
Gemma Chan:
(laughs)
Michelle Lee:
Like I said, the word, to me, that comes up is regal. Is that something-
Gemma Chan:
Oh, thanks!
Michelle Lee:
... that you feel like you can-
Gemma Chan:
Do you know-
Michelle Lee:
... just like tap into really easily?
Gemma Chan:
I feel like I can kind- I can put that on when needs be.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
But I promise you, I am definitely not that put-together all the time.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
I don't know. I felt- well, I spoke to Kevin Kwan about that, and Astrid is- she's kind of meant to be that- the equivalent of royalty-
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
... in Singapore. So, you know, I tried to channel that kinda old school...glamour, kind of an Audrey Hepburn-ish, Grace Kelly, that kind of vibe. Did my best. Um, yeah, I don't know. I guess it's just one facet of what I can tap into. But, um- I'm definitely not ... me as Gemma, I'm- much more chaotic than people would believe. I think I'm just quite good at kind of faking-
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
... faking being put-together. There's- it's a whole kind of, yeah, chaos- chaos into me.
Michelle Lee:
Well, that's- that's your job. And I will say, I mean, when you said that Audrey Hepburn thing, like the- the wardrobe...
Gemma Chan:
(gasps)
Michelle Lee:
...like your wardrobe specifically in that movie is so amazing. Were you able to keep anything?
Gemma Chan:
Hell no!
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
No! It was like being Cinderella. I had to give everything straight back. But, you know, it was- I felt so lucky to even be wearing some of those outfits.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
And yeah, it was- it was great.
Michelle Lee:
I feel like the other thing too that when I think about you during the promo for that movie, it was really meaningful to me, and I feel like meaningful to a lot of other people who I've talked to, the fact that during the promotion, you wore either all or mostly Asian designers. Like to me that is something that is so meaningful, because it's one thing to be a face on the screen, but it's another thing to then make opportunities for other people and to do things that are just, again, behind- not- not even behind the scenes, because obviously you were still in front of the camera, but...Can you walk us through the thought process behind that, and what that meant to you?
Gemma Chan:
I remember before, we were starting to plan the outfits of the tour, and I didn't have that much time to get things ready. And I was talking to my stylist. And, you know, you know you're gonna have to put together this many looks, and we said, "Why don't we use it as an opportunity to tell a bit of a story, to be a bit educational, and to, as you say, lift- give others a bit of a lift?"
And then, around that time as well, I know you guys hosted this screening from everyone kind of who is Asian in fashion in New York. You had that wonderful screening, and you showed such support for us. And I remember seeing that and seeing the pictures from it and being so moved. I thought, I just want to give something back. And from then on I just knew what I wanted to do.
Michelle Lee:
Oh, that makes me so happy!
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, no, honestly, it was you guys. I was so grateful to the support from so many other areas. And, you know, it really felt like the first time that our community really came together in a way that we haven't done before or haven't had the opportunity to before. And there was so much love. And yeah, it was just a small thing that I could do to give back. And my stylist, Rebecca Corbin-Murray, she did an amazing job. She managed to kind of put it all together really quickly. And, yeah, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled that we were able to do that.
Michelle Lee:
Well, I think luckily also there are so many good Asian designers. (laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Well, yes, exactly. There's so much talent. So it wasn't ... in that sense, it wasn't hard to find wonderful things to wear.
Michelle Lee:
So, okay, because this is The Allure Podcast, we definitely want to talk about beauty. You mentioned before loving beauty. If you had just I guess a sentence or two to tell me your philosophy about beauty. What is it? Do you consider yourself to be high-maintenance, low-maintenance? Like how do you feel about beauty as a whole?
Gemma Chan:
I think I have a quite holistic kind of approach to it all, which is that I think you should take care of yourself on the inside, but also take care of yourself on the outside, and they will feed each other. My beauty ritual is something that I find very calming. It can definitely give you a lift if you're feeling a bit tired or you're feeling a bit down. You can kind of go through your steps, and it's kind of quite meditative, really.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
I don't know if you feel the same-
Michelle Lee:
Okay, what is it? (laughing) I want to know and I want to copy it.
Gemma Chan:
Do you know ... Oh, no! I don't know if it's that complicated, really... I use wipes. (laughs)
Michelle Lee:
Like, um, makeup remover wipes?
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
Which ones?
Gemma Chan:
So I use Simple Micellar Wipes. And they are so good. They take off my waterproof mascara — textured on one side, so you can really kind of work it in. And I use two of them. So the first one gets it off, and then the second one really cleans the skin. And then if I really feel I need it, I sometimes use a micellar water toner as well, to really cleanse the skin. And that kinda does it for me.
Michelle Lee:
So that'll be nighttime-
Gemma Chan:
That's nighttime.
Michelle Lee:
... 'cause that's when you're removing makeup.
Gemma Chan:
Yes, but I also do the micellar water toner in the morning as well.
Michelle Lee:
Mm-hmm.
Gemma Chan:
And then I use the Boots No. 7 Protect and Perfect range.
Michelle Lee:
Mm-hmm.
Gemma Chan:
Which I really love. I use the serum, the eye cream, and their night and day cream as well.
Michelle Lee:
And then makeup-wise, on a day where you're not working...
Gemma Chan:
Mm-hmm.
Michelle Lee:
... are you someone who, if you're going to the store or something, do you always wear makeup? Like what's your makeup situation on just like a normal day, like a hangout day?
Gemma Chan:
A hangout day, I'm pretty laid back about it. Like I will sometimes... well, it depends on the state of my skin. If I've had a few late nights or whatever, I might want to put on a bit of concealer and a little bit of base. I’ll also... I like going makeup-free some days as well, giving my skin a break. I have to wear so much for work. Good to have those days where you don't wear anything.
Michelle Lee:
Do you feel like you're good at doing your own makeup? And at what point did you learn how to do that?
Gemma Chan:
I...
Michelle Lee:
Because I feel like on Asian eyes specifically it's always...
Gemma Chan:
It's so specific.
Michelle Lee:
It's so specific!
Gemma Chan:
Isn't it?
Michelle Lee:
And I've come across different makeup artists through the years where they have no clue how to do my eyes.
Gemma Chan:
Oh my gosh!
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
No, no, tell me about it. There are early shoots that I did where I was like, "Oh, hey there, geisha.” Like you've... Wow! You've really... you've gone there. (laughing) But I feel like I've worked with so many brilliant makeup artists now who do know how to work with Asian features. But I had to learn very quickly early on what worked for my eye shape and what didn't. And often there weren't really tips in magazines or tutorials.
Michelle Lee:
Yep.
Gemma Chan:
Back when I was growing up it was very much experimentation, watching what my mom did, and then just trying it out for myself.
Michelle Lee:
‘Cause you have a crease, right?
Gemma Chan:
I do have a crease.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gemma Chan:
I do have a crease, but I have very straight, very fine eyelashes...
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
... that kind of go down.
Michelle Lee:
Okay, can I tell you it made me so happy because you did an interview with Jessica Chia for Allure-
Gemma Chan:
(gasp) I did!
Michelle Lee:
And you mentioned Maybelline the Falsies Mascara. It is the one that I love too!
Gemma Chan:
Is it?!
Michelle Lee:
And I haven't heard of anyone else who fully gets it. And when I saw that, I was like, "Wait! She knows." (laughs)
Gemma Chan:
I'm wearing it now. It's the best...
Michelle Lee:
Amazing!
Gemma Chan:
... formula. And it holds the curl. So I use eyelash curlers.
Michelle Lee:
Do you have lash extensions?
Gemma Chan:
I have a few individual clusters...
Michelle Lee:
I was gonna say 'cause your lashes are really long.
Gemma Chan:
...filling in the gaps. But just a couple in the middle. Um, but the rest of it's...
Michelle Lee:
They're amazing!
Gemma Chan:
... just mascara. But I mentioned in the interview I did with Jessica that I use a brush from an old Maybelline Define-a-Lash Mascara, which is a different brush from the one you get with Maybelline the Falsies, which is more of like a scooping brush...
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
... which I find puts too much on at once, whereas the definer lash brush puts just the right amount on and you can kind of coat the lashes. And then they stay!
Michelle Lee:
I love the hack.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, the waterproof formula though.
Michelle Lee:
It has to be waterproof.
Gemma Chan:
Has to be waterproof.
Michelle Lee:
Yes, yes!
Gemma Chan:
Otherwise...
Michelle Lee:
That's what I'm saying.
Gemma Chan:
You get the lash...
Michelle Lee:
You are the only person I've ever met who fully gets that.
Gemma Chan:
(laughs) It's ... (laughing) Yeah, it's my thing. I suppose I feel if I'm gonna go out and like be out out, mascara is the thing. Because without mascara I look like I haven't got any lashes.
Michelle Lee:
Yes. I feel the same.
Gemma Chan:
My lashes may as well be blonde.
Michelle Lee:
Same. Same. I'm gonna send you another one too. So there's another one that I use. That I love. That for sure is like a holy grail item. Lancôme Monsieur Big, also waterproof.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, I haven't used that.
Michelle Lee:
It's another one that is actually a little bit more dramatic too. It also holds the curl really nicely to kind of alternate, maybe even for nighttime, using that one where you want a little bit more drama. It's so good.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, okay.
Michelle Lee:
It's really good.
Gemma Chan:
I look forward to trying that.
Michelle Lee:
Okay, so hair care.
Gemma Chan:
Yes.
Michelle Lee:
So, um, what's your hair routine like? How do you think about your hair?
Gemma Chan:
I mean, my hair has to go through the wringer. I mean, it's good. It behaves. It does what it’s told. I have a lot of hair. And it's really strong. It's really strong. If I don't do anything with it and just blow it dry without product, it's super slippery.
Michelle Lee:
Is your hair naturally very straight, or do you have a little...?
Gemma Chan:
It's naturally dead straight, but usually I put in a bit of texture when I blow-dry it.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
'Cause if I leave it completely straight it can look very flat and greasy quickly.
Michelle Lee:
Have you ever been really adventurous with your hair, either color-wise or cut? Like when I was in college I had my worst haircut ever. I had a pixie, which you can imagine...
Gemma Chan:
Oh, my goodness!
Michelle Lee:
... with my hair texture. It was like... You know when you see Asian babies and they have...
Gemma Chan:
(laughs)
Michelle Lee:
... the hair that goes straight up? It was like that.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, bless. (laughs)
Michelle Lee:
Have you ever had either a bad haircut or like were you adventurous with your hair?
Gemma Chan:
Well, way back to childhood, my mom used to cut my hair. And I feel like this is something that all Asian babies go through. You have the Asian bowl cut.
Michelle Lee:
Yes.
Gemma Chan:
I mean, both my sister and I, there are pictures of us where we both... It's like she literally put a bowl...
Michelle Lee:
Yep.
Gemma Chan:
... and then just trimmed around it. And so I had that for quite a few years. And then I grew my hair long. And then I had a bob in my teenage years. I had an asymmetric bob at one point, which made me cry when I asked for it. And then I was just like, "This is not a good look."
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Um, I had bangs, a fringe. I think I've had a fringe twice. I think maybe it's not the most flattering thing for me. Although I have tried clip-in...
Michelle Lee:
I have too.
Gemma Chan:
... clip-in fringes now, which I do really like.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah, clip-ins are great.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, 'cause then you get the fullness and it stays in better than if I cut bangs. I think it would be really high-maintenance.
Michelle Lee:
Totally.
Gemma Chan:
But color-wise I've kind of stayed... I've worn lots of wigs for work. I did a job called Secret Diary of a Call Girl. It was probably about seven...
Michelle Lee:
Oh, the Billie Piper show?
Gemma Chan:
Yes.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah, yeah.
Gemma Chan:
I think it was quite a long time ago, maybe seven or eight years ago. And in every scene I had different hair and makeup.
Michelle Lee:
Ohhhh.
Gemma Chan:
So I was playing a dominatrix and I wore a purple wig at one point. Yeah, I had all kinds of hairstyles.
Michelle Lee:
Do you enjoy that type of thing? Do you enjoy the hair and makeup aspect to things? And also the red carpet? Do you like getting dressed up?
Gemma Chan:
Well, in terms of my work, in terms of my acting, it's an intrinsic part of getting into character. And whether it's just a particular thing, a particular way your hair is styled, having my hair up when I was playing Astrid, that kind of thing immediately changes your posture and the feeling of having your neck exposed... And, yeah, it's a big part for me of getting into character.
In terms of the red carpet stuff, I've learned to embrace it. I mean, it can still feel really overwhelming and, you know, you're putting yourself out there. And people are gonna be immediately kind of judging every single thing about your choice of clothes, your beauty choices. If you just try not to think about that too much. You know, put together a look that you feel comfortable in, that you love, and then just go out there and breathe.
Michelle Lee:
Well, I feel like you've been nailing it. I loved your Globes look. And I feel like all the headlines were that you totally pulled off shorts on the red carpet.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, yeah!
Michelle Lee:
Which was amazing!
Gemma Chan:
Thank you!
Michelle Lee:
And I will say, looking back at the past 10 or 20 years of red carpets, I actually miss people taking risks sometimes. You know what I mean? So I definitely appreciated that. Plus it was just a stunning color, the whole look, everything. It was amazing.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, thank you! I don't think I'll ever wear such a cool thing ever again.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, it had shorts. It had, you know, a huge train. And it had pockets as well. It was just like all my dreams, all my dreams came true with that gown.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah, I feel like any gown with pockets is the dream.
Gemma Chan:
Yep, it was amazing. Valentino made the gown.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, Pierpaolo [Piccioli] is a genius.
Michelle Lee:
Amazing.
Gemma Chan:
I was very, very lucky to get to wear that.
Michelle Lee:
Talking about beauty again with skin care. Do you worry about aging at all? Is that something that you look into the future and worry about wrinkles? What's your view on aging?
Gemma Chan:
Ideally, I'd love to be able to age gracefully. I don't want to feel scared of it. I want to, you know... I feel that I love opening a magazine and seeing women, all the models in editorials, seeing some wrinkles, seeing gray hair, seeing that being embraced as something natural and beautiful. And I think the more we see those images and we have them put in front of us, we will start to expand our idea of what beauty is. And that goes for ethnicity, size... And I really love this new movement. I love everything you've done in your magazine...
Michelle Lee:
Thank you.
Gemma Chan:
... in terms of trying to change our idea and our perception of what beautiful is. And in the process, liberating women from the ridiculous narrow standards that we have held or had to hold ourselves to for such a long time. And why not? I just think it's so great what we're doing. We're going in the right direction.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah, of course, I think growing old is a privilege actually. And it's natural. Yeah, don't get me wrong! I'm sure when the first real wrinkles come in, I'll probably freak out...
Michelle Lee:
(laughs)
Gemma Chan:
...the same as anyone else. But I want to be able to enjoy it. And every wrinkle, everything on your face is an embodiment and an expression of the life that you've lived.
Michelle Lee:
Yeah.
Gemma Chan:
And the more you laugh, the more wrinkles you have. So, yeah. (laughing)
Michelle Lee:
That's such a good way of looking at it. Okay, so broadening beyond just beauty, where do you see yourself 10 years from now?
Gemma Chan:
I think I have a real problem with seeing, (laughs) visualizing myself...in the future. When people have asked me similar things before like, "Where do you see…?," I can't even picture where I'm gonna be in five years' time. I hope to still be here, to be healthy, to be doing work that I'm interested in, telling stories that I'm passionate about telling, whether I have a family by that point, possibly. I don't know. Yeah, how old will I be in 10 years? I'll be 46. Maybe, yeah, maybe I'll have kids. I don't know.
Michelle Lee:
Well, that's exciting.
Gemma Chan:
Yeah.
Michelle Lee:
Well, thank you so much for doing this.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, thank you.
Michelle Lee:
I am gonna send you mascara.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, I look forward to trying it.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs) And I feel like next time you're in town, we definitely still need to do coffee or lunch or something.
Gemma Chan:
I would love that.
Michelle Lee:
(laughs) All right. Thank you so much.
Gemma Chan:
Oh, thank you. Good to chat with you.
Michelle Lee:
All right. You too. Bye, everyone.
Gemma Chan:
Bye.
Gemma Chan Tries 9 Things She's Never Done Before
Originally Appeared on Allure
