‘The Walking Dead’ Postmortem: Lennie James on Morgan’s Breakdown and Why He Kills Again
Warning: This interview for the “Bury Me Here” episode of The Walking Dead contains spoilers.
Morgan lost two allies in “Bury Me Here”: one, his friend and mentee Benjamin, by the hand of a Savior and the plot of Kingdom dweller Richard. And the other, Richard himself, who was snuffed out by Morgan’s brutal throttling after Morgan became enraged that Richard’s well-intentioned plan to rally the Kingdom to declare war on the Saviors ended with the death of one of the community’s brightest future leaders.
Morgan portrayer Lennie James broke down Morgan’s breakdown for Yahoo TV, including how Morgan’s biggest move (and heartbreak) was allowing himself to be open to the possibility of a father/son-like relationship with Benjamin; how his old “Here’s Not Here” pal Eastman’s influence still weighs on Morgan every day; and why he decided to finally tell Carol the truth about Glenn and Abraham and the Saviors.
James also hints at Morgan’s journey for the rest of Season 7 with one word: “war.”
Related: ‘The Walking Dead’ Recap: Of Weevils and War
I remember talking to you after “Here’s Not Here” in Season 6, when viewers maybe thought we had Morgan all figured out, that he was settled into this philosophy that couldn’t be shaken. You gently said at the time that Morgan is on a journey, so we shouldn’t necessarily assume that was an end point for him. At that time, did you know where Morgan was going to go, did you know that he was going to get to this point?
I didn’t, on one level, and I did on another. I knew he was going to be tested. Otherwise, there was no point in setting him on this road. The road was never finite for me. I know a lot of people have been discussing the philosophy that Morgan has chosen to live by and have kind of referred to it in terms of things being absolute, that Morgan no longer kills. On one level, that was true, but on another level, it really wasn’t. Morgan is trying to live by this code that Eastman had imparted to him. He was trying to live the way of somebody who chooses to operate and to meet people based on the premise that all life is precious, as opposed to the premise that all life is expendable and whenever you meet someone, your primary objective is that one of you walks away from it alive. That’s not how Morgan wants to live, and he doesn’t think that’s the way that other people should be living, because we’ve all survived now. We all know how to make our way in this strange world that we find ourselves in. Anybody we meet now at this stage in proceedings has somehow shape or form survived a long time, so they know how to do it. Now we have to define how to live. That’s the question that Morgan’s asking.
He was always going to be tested. His history on the show is he can’t go forward for being knocked back, so this is another chapter. On that one, it’ll be interesting to see how he comes out and if he comes out of this latest kind of tragedy to hit him.
Benjamin’s death sends him into a breakdown, at least, temporarily, a kind of throwback to the state we saw him in in “Clear.” Morgan had started to grow close with Benjamin and his little brother. How deeply had he started to feel that kind of father/son relationship with Benjamin and Henry?
I think, on one level, it’s not a matter of how deeply or how far into it he had gotten. It’s that he had allowed the possibility. For Morgan, just that is massive. That is no tiny step. He had said yes to King Ezekiel, “I will put him under my wing, I will lead him.” He didn’t jump in there and throw his arm around him and say, “Call me Daddy.” He’s kept his distance, a respectful distance, partly because he’s aware of Benjamin and his brother’s relationship to the King, but also, he’s sensitive, and he’s a little scared. He allowed himself the possibility, and we see what happened when it was taken away from him. That’s the effect it’s had on him. Added to that, the fact that he’s also allowed himself the possibility of being a member of the Kingdom. The Kingdom is slightly different to Alexandria because Rick’s not there, and on a day-to-day basis, Carol is not there. There’s no one there in the Kingdom who knows past Morgan. All they know is the man they have met now, and that’s an opportunity for him. He’s allowed the possibility of that opportunity as well. Both things come crashing down.
I think the other thing to say that’s really important, and it’s certainly important for me in the way that I’ve been trained to play Morgan, is beneath the peaceful Morgan, the man trying to walk the way of a peaceful warrior, has always been the tormented Morgan. There’s always been torment just beneath the surface. He’s constantly, as much as he’s been in conflict with other people, been in conflict with himself. I think that’s why the death of Benjamin affects him so powerfully, so immediately. I think one of the brilliances of Scott [Gimple]’s writing is that we see this explosion, and as an audience, we think, “Oh, he’s going to go all the way back down that road,” and he doesn’t. He pulls himself back. He tries to get some kind of reins on it, some kind of focus, some kind of control to make sure that he doesn’t end up back where he’s been, because he knows what that is. He’s fighting against it even though some things are inevitable. He’s aware that one of the things that is inevitable is that if he’s ever going to get some peace, he’s going to have to go to war first.
What specifically does send him into the fury that leads him to kill Richard at that exact moment that he does? Can he just not stand how Richard is trying to continue carrying out the plan that got Benjamin killed, or is Morgan doubling down on Richard’s plan, killing him and showing the Saviors that he and the others are going to comply with them, so they don’t suspect the Kingdomites are a threat to them?
I think both things are true, and not necessarily the case as well. I think that Morgan hears Richard. I think by the time he walks into Richard’s room, he knows that he is on the road to having to do something about the death of Benjamin, and he’s trying to navigate that. I think when Richard says to Morgan that he will lead, “It will be up to me to lead our army,” at that point, I just think Morgan finds that unacceptable. Added to that, he asked Richard, “Have you spoken to the King? Have you told him what you’ve done?” when they’re waiting for the Saviors. Morgan is basically saying to him, “Have you done what you said you were going to do?” It’s quite clear that he hasn’t. Then Morgan was like, “Well, if we’re going to do this” — and Richard’s plan is not a bad one, quite obviously — but, “if we’re going to do this, that life we lose is yours.” That proof we need to get to the Saviors to believe that “we get it,” I’m going to use you to make that happen. I think that’s when those decisions are made, at those two particular points. I don’t think he wakes up that day thinking, “I’m going to kill Richard.” I think he wakes up trying to find a way not to kill him, but Richard gets in his own way.
Is Eastman on Morgan’s mind at all throughout this?
I think Eastman is always on his mind. I think there are two major options for Morgan: either he’s out in the world or he’s looking out; either he’s Eastman or he’s Morgan. The difference is one of them is out in the world, and one of them is in a hut, living with a goat, making cheese. If he is truly going to walk and be peaceful and not kill, he can go the way of Eastman and find some place secluded and build up a fence and get himself a friendly goat and see what the rest of his life might be, but he has chosen a slightly harder path, which is to live by this thing he cast out in the world.
What is Morgan’s motivation for telling Carol the truth about Glenn and Abraham and the state of Alexandria’s dealings with the Saviors?
He’s saying goodbye. That’s exactly what he’s doing. She asked him, “Where are you going?” and having told her about Abraham and Glenn and Spencer and Olivia, he turns and he’s about to leave. He tells her, “I’m going to kill them all one by one.” He has come to see Carol to say goodbye, to say, “I’m going to go, but before I go, either you can find out what happened from me or you can find out another way, but if you’re going to find out from me, you’re going to need to find out from me now, because I don’t know how much longer I’m going to be here.” She’s the next closest person that knows him, and he can’t go without paying her at least that amount of respect.
He isn’t really thinking about joining in Rick’s efforts against the Saviors, then? Does he intend to literally go kill them on a solo mission?
He intends to go forward like Rosita, who is on her mission that maybe it’ll take just one person to get further than an army might be able to get, but I’m not even sure he’s focused on Negan. For Morgan, as yet, Negan is faceless. Negan is a name. He’s never met the fellow. What he has met is the two men that he feels are responsible for the pain that he feels at this particular moment, and the two men who appear to be pushing him back to a place that he really doesn’t want to be at, to be a person who he really doesn’t want to be. Maybe if he ended them, he can find some kind of peace and some kind of ability to get back to the person he wants to be, but he can only do that moving forward. There is no going back, because going back is just too scary for him. He can’t sit on his hands now. He’s killed Richard. He has set some things in motion, and he’s a man of absolutes. If this is who he’s got to be, then this is who he’s got to be. I think one of the things that’s really telling and is a great piece of writing on Scott’s behalf and a gift for me as the actor, is the moment — which could be clumsy in another writer’s hand — when Morgan misspeaks and calls Benjamin “Duane.”
I took that moment and wanted it to be that not only were other people surprised because that had come out of him, but also that it surprised Morgan. That actually in that moment he realized in himself how deeply this has affected him and how much he has to fight his way out, and like I said, that will mean going to war before he can find any kind of peace.
Related: ‘The Walking Dead’ Postmortem: Scott Gimple on Sparking Morgan’s Trauma and the New Jerry
What can you say about Morgan’s journey for the rest of the season?
Well, I think Morgan is on the path that a lot of our main characters are on, which is navigating and preparing for war. This being The Walking Dead, that won’t necessarily come in a straight line, but there is a preparation and everybody is going to get their heads around it, and maybe it will mean people coming together, and maybe it will mean people being on sides that they didn’t expect to be on. One way or another, we’re going to mess with you, but what is inevitable is that there is a march toward a great conflict, and we’re all involved in that whether we like it or not.
After Benjamin dies and Morgan breaks down near the “Bury Me Here” grave, he actually holds his knife to his wrist. We have seen Morgan at a stage in the past where he wanted to die, he begged Eastman to kill him at one point. He’s past that now it seems. There is, somewhere, hope in him, that he can push forward past this latest trial.
Yes, I think you’re right. I don’t think he’s hit rock bottom. I do think that, if nothing else, Morgan has a real strong faith in people and life. If he didn’t, he wouldn’t be here, because he’s had more than enough opportunity and more than enough reason to end it if he had chosen to. I do think that, ultimately, he is a believer that things aren’t always as bad as they necessarily seem, and he can find a way around it. I think that’s one of his saving graces — not his only one, but I do think that he keeps getting up, Morgan. He keeps finding a way of putting one foot in front of the other. I think, ultimately, that will be his salvation.
The Walking Dead airs Sundays at 9 p.m. ET on AMC.
While you wait for this week’s “Ranking Dead,” check out last week’s character power rankings.
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