MAKERS@Home with Luvvie Ajayi Jones
#LuvvieAjayiJones, the New York Times bestselling author of 'I'm Judging You' as well as a speaker and podcast host, is teaching us ALL how to tackle fear and audaciously step into our lives, our careers, and our legacies—sometimes exceeding our wildest dreams.Luvvie's book 'Professional Troublemaker' is on shelves March 2! Get your copy and learn how to be a truthteller, a change agent and a trailblazer. Hosted by @janayshawkins #MAKERSatHome @ProfessionalTroublemaker
Video Transcript
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Hi, everybody, and welcome to MAKERS@HOME live. I'm JaNay Hawkins, the Head of Partnership Development and DE&I Programming. And I am here with the beautiful-- hey, girl, hey. --podcast host, international speaker, New York Times best selling author, Luvvie Ajayi Jones.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I'm here in the building. What's up? What's going on?
JANAY S. HAWKINS: What's going on? I haven't seen you. How are you doing? It's been a while.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Girl, it's been March Madness over here already, all right?
JANAY S. HAWKINS: So what? The last time we saw each other was, what? 2019 at ADCOLOR.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes, that sounds about right, yep.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Yep, and you're doing all right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Listen, we got to. We are making it. We are making it in the-- we will move past the pandemic wall. And we are making it.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Girl, we have to make it, because guess what? That's all we can do, right?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Facts. Facts only Facts only.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: So before we get into this discussion, I got to set the table, so that the people can feast properly, OK?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: OK, OK, get it together.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Yes, we got to get it together, because, today, we're talking about your new release, OK? Professional Troublemaker, right? The Fear Fighter Manual, which is already blessing my life. But I got to let the people know how bad you are and when you started being a troublemaker, years ago, when I met you.
Wait, people are saying they can't see me. Can y'all see me? Put thumbs up. What's going on?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I can see you. I can see.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: OK, well, as long as you can see me, let's keep going. Four years ago, at the MAKERS Conference, I met you, and it was probably a pivotal point in my life and my career. I don't even think I told you this. We were in the audience, and the people just need to know, right? The MAKERS Conference, the audience at the time was mostly white, right?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yeah.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: You had just gotten off stage, and you gathered all the Black people from the audience to take a picture.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I did. I did.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Y'all were running, so this is my first conference at the time. And I'm scared. I'm like, why are all the Black people running? What is happening, right? And you were like, no, MAKERS' so Black. We got to take a picture. We got to take a picture.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: MAKERS' so Black. We did. Yo, leave it up to me to be collecting all the Black folk.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Correct. Troublemaking, OK? So when you did, you grabbed my arm. I'm like, where the hell are we going? I'm at work. I don't know what is about to happen, but we took a photo. And when we're taking the, you know, 1, 2, 3, pose, it was, say, MAKERS so Black. A white man in the audience came up to you afterwards and said, can I get in the photo? And your response to that man and how you gathered him has stuck with me four years later.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I don't remember this. I don't remember this at all. This is hilarious. I do not remember this at all. OK, tell me. Tell me. What did I say? What does my right self say?
JANAY S. HAWKINS: You told him, no, and this was all about the melanin. You see all these Black women and men in this picture? It's for us. It's not for you.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I said that?
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah, and I didn't know what time it was. But he did, OK? You did. Unapologetically, yes, people are responding. Absolutely.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: That's hilarious. I've completely forgotten. I completely forgot that exchange, by the way, completely. Like, you saying that, I'm like, what? I did?
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Because that's how you live your life, and you're supposed to. You're supposed to, but I didn't, OK? And since then, I was like, I found my tribe. We are going to be friends. She told this white man, no, OK?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Listen, I don't have time.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: So yes, in the true spirit of just being who you are, a troublemaker, we got to talk about that, and this book has already been blessing in my life. But when you got into the audacity of unshackled white man and it being massive in your book, let's talk about it. Because you were talking about the story behind summit and powder mountain. Yes, show the people. Show them.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: LET me show you all this beautiful book, because I'm so excited that it looks this good. You know, the words ain't just hidden. It's looking good, all right? Just get into it, all right? Just so you know, all right? That's it. That's it.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Correct, correct.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: OK, continue. I'm focused. I'm focused.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Right, right. Listen, we can score a little bit. It's OK. It's all right. So the story behind Summit and powder mountains, so we got to talk about dreaming audaciously. Because I truly believe, if HBCU had a course about dreaming on purpose, we'd all be better people because I am a product of HBCU. So I'm just thinking about--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Amen, amen.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: --I had the nerve when I was at Tennessee State to do that. Because where we come from, Nigeria, Chicago, and East St. Louis, I don't know people can buy mountains.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Word.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: So let's--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Word.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: I don't know people that buy mountains, so let's talk about that and why it's important for people to dream audaciously.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yeah, so I wrote Professional Troublemaker. Because I wanted this book to loan people courage in the moments they need, and sometimes, the courage looks like dreaming big. Like, people tell us to dream big all the time, and you might not know what it means.
I'm like, you know what? Dreaming big means you have this giant wish that you're not sure how it's going to come true, because it's just so big, right? And I think don't stop there.
The thing is don't stop at the dreaming big, but I want you to start there. And I wanted to write the story of Summit, because I've been invited to Summit. I've gone to Summit.
Summit is an organization that was started by these white dudes who decided that they were going to buy a mountain, because they liked to go to these cabins, hang with their people. They went enough, and they literally were like, I wonder if we can buy a mountain. Let me say that again.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Summit is owned by white boys who took their friends to weekends in a cabin in the mountains. And they didn't just say, let me buy the cabin. They were like, I want to buy the mountain. Oh, my God, first of all, how do you even think a mountain is for sale?
I would just be thinking, let me just buy a cup of coffee, or let me buy-- I like this cabin. I'll buy the bed. I'll buy the mattress, because I laid on it and I liked it.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Correct.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: These people were like, nah, nah, nah, I actually want the mountain that this cabin sits on.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: The whole mountain.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And I'm just like, the only way I want to be like white men, the only way, only, zero, the only way is that I want to have the limitless dreams that they have. Because they've never been told, they can't have it. They've never been told no.
The gift of the fact that they've never been told no, and that this world has been built for them, and they have created systems that tell everybody else, you belong here, the gift that they have is that they don't think in limits. Because they've never been told, limits exists. I want to unlearn-- I want to unlearn my pragmatism sometimes. I want to unlearn my under ground feet here.
I want to unlearn the boxes that I've been put in, like I want to unlearn the programming that I've gotten that tells me that all I can buy is a mattress and not the mountain, right? So that's what I-- like when we talk about dreaming audaciously, the idea that you can even think you could buy a mountain. I think about the world that we live in.
This book is called Professional Troublemaker, because the world that we live in was built by troublemakers. People, who looked around and said, I know we could travel by train, but we can probably fly up there. Because it'll get us there faster. Somebody called them crazy. Somebody called them crazy.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: But I'm like, I want to be limitless in the ideas that I have for myself and my friends for the world. And that's going to look like making trouble. That's going to look like, how can I buy a mountain? That's what I need to be thinking, not buying the mattress.
The mattress ain't good enough. The mountain is what I need to think about buying, and conquering, and creating spaces for. So that's why I put that in there, like we got a dream in ways that's, like, people will laugh at us at the audacity.
I want people to laugh at my dreams, right? Because they're like, that's kind of wild. I want you to laugh at it. Because when it comes true, I get to come back to you and say, so you were laughing, huh? Who laughing now, fam? Because I am also petty.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: So yeah.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: I love that. There's so many comments resonating with what you're saying, because we are taught to dream that way, particularly, people of color.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: No.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: You know, the Black women, and how people try to limit us. But, girl, OK, right? All right, so I want to talk about the process. I love any process, song making, filmmaking, anything, documentary making.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: By the way, if this is speaking to your spirit, y'all better place this order and stop playing these games, OK?
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Now, now.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: If that spoke to your spirit, this whole book is going to minister to you. Anyway, continue.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: It really is, and y'all, it's such a fast read. I'm going to squirrel just a little bit. This is going to be a part of people's New Year's resolution. It really is. I'm speaking that now, where millions of people are going to get this book. This is going to be a New York Times best selling copy, but do you know why?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Amen.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Because you-- I'm going into the next point. You were obedient. I'm thinking about it, because this has been coming up in my life several times.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: OK, yes.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: It's so funny how things that you hear in college or years ago come back.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes, yes.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: My professor Dr. William Latham, I got to say it when he says, obedience is better than sacrifice, OK? Last week, you had an Instagram live, where you talked to your book editor. And I was like this in it, because I love the process of making something that you were told to do, something that's in your heart.
And you surround yourself with purpose driven people. Everybody knows that. Everybody knows who your crew is and your tribe is. But I want to know, when was the moment, where you had to be obedient and write a book about fear fighting? When was that?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Shoot. You know, I got the very concrete idea for this book on the way to Paris for a speaking engagement. I usually carry a notepad with me, and I was boarding the flight. And a line just dropped in my head, and it was like, I come from a long line of professional troublemakers. One of them was my grandmother, and I was like, oh, snap. My grandma is going to be in the middle of my book that I'm going to write about troublemaking.
Yes, and I sat down. I strapped the seatbelt on, and I wrote for three hours, my first three hours of that flight, when I'm typically sleep on flights. I'd be like, just knock me out. But on that flight, I took my notebook out, and it was a notebook that was this color. I actually need to get the notebook when I get home, and I wrote for three hours. And I was like, that's my book. I felt convicted to write this book, because I realized in a real way that in the times when I let fear stop me from doing what felt necessary, I lose.
In the times when I say, I am afraid, but I'm going to do it any way, I win. And my Ted Talk was a prime example, because I turned it down twice. I was about to turn down a third time when a friend didn't let me, and I thought about-- and then I got on that stage and gave this talk. And that now has five million views, this talk that has now transformed my life and my career.
And that has gotten me thousands of emails over the last three years, and I'm like, I almost didn't do it. Because I was afraid. I almost did not do this thing, because I was afraid. And I think about-- it convicted me. It made me say, you know, how many times in my life have I said, no, to yes opportunities that could have transformed my path? How many times have I let fear make the decision for me when I could have chosen courage, and how many times have I let fear stop me from doing what I'm purposed to do?
And in the moments when I'm letting fear win, nobody wins. When fear wins, nobody wins. So I was like, this is what my book has to be about. I've got to talk about what it's like to make trouble in our lives, and making trouble in our lives is going to look like doing what feels hard, the thing that feels too big, doing the things that you might not feel ready for.
Because you are compelled to do it, and sometimes, we have to be obedient to the fact that we feel compelled to do this thing. So I was obedient, and I wrote this book. I wrote this book in the middle of the pandemic. I did. The world shut down in March.
My manuscript was due in May, and I sat on my couch. And I was like, oh, God, but I felt convicted to write it. Because it was the book that I wanted to read right then, the book that I needed to read right then. It was a book that I needed to read when I said no to the Ted Talk. It was a book that I need in the moments when I'm like, I am bold, but some things are sounding too big. Should I do it?
So I was like, I need to put this pen to paper. I felt like it was my job to put it on paper, because the words were, like, sitting on my shoulders. It was sitting just right here, like we ain't going to leave you, until you do this. So are you going to do it or what? So I did it, and that's that obedience that you're talking about.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And when you-- that is really powerful. I just have to say, when I read the TED Talk story-- I've heard it before, but it-- girl, I cried. I did.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: This is of those books where I've been writing-- I have pieces of paper, Post-it notes, notebooks where this book has been with me-- in the kitchen, the bathroom, living-- everywhere. Because it's that-- it is that powerful. And you can feel that you are operating in your calling and doing so. So I'm glad that you one, wrote the book, and second, were obedient to doing this process, right? And I--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yeah.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I want to pivot-- I want to pivot because the process requires purpose-driven people to be a part of your team. And you know, there was something that you posted, and it stopped me in my tracks. And I was-- I mean, I couldn't breathe looking at it, because it is-- we talked about this earlier, and you said I could ask.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm-hmm.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Your therapist passed away. And--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yep.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --girl, that shook me. So the first thing I did, after reading, and digesting it, and saying a prayer for you, right, was reach out to my therapist, and asking is she OK, one, how is she doing.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Second, I love you, and thank you for being a part of this process with me.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [INAUDIBLE] up, OK? I am one glass away, whatever away from being crazy. OK? So I--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Girl, ain't we all?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And we got to be honest about that. We got to be honest about that.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: So I reached out to her, and I'm like, listen, this is what happened. I saw it, and this is why I'm reaching out to you. And she said she had heard it from several of her clients.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Wow.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And I'm like, the power of storytelling, the power of living in your truth--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Wow.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --grief-- OK? So I just-- I have to ask-- and I know people that are watching that know you-- how are you doing with that, and dealing with that?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Girl-- struggling. For the people who asking, the book is called "Professional Troublemaker." it's on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, independent bookstores. Y'all go ahead and get it. Girl, struggling.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Let me tell you-- so my therapist died on January 12th. That day, I had probably five or six meetings and a few like, speaking engagement-type things. And I found out that she died at noon. One of my friends told me around-- actually, my husband told me at noon.
And I stared at him, and I was-- I remember being like, what? And he was like, yeah, she passed away. I was like--
So you know when you know that something is too big for you to function with in the moment?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes, I do.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Like, I was like, this is actually too big for me to deal with. So I'm going to get back to you. And I literally walked away, because I was like, I still have eight hours' worth of work to do.
So I did this thing that I'm not even sure how-- because I don't compartmentalize that well, typically. Typically, like, you see all my shit on my face. You will see all of it.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes. Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And on that day, I was like, this is too big for me to even touch right now. So I'm just going to put it in a box in my chest, and just leave it there, and not touch it till 8:00. Because I had like-- I had all these like, meetings that were like, I couldn't cancel, and if I did, it was just unproductive. I had to record my podcast. It was the day that I recorded my podcast with Gabourey-- with Gabby Sidibe.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Gabby Sidibe, yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And I found out-- and I had a meeting, and then I had to talk to Gabby. And I was like, I put it-- just threw it away somewhere. And I did a speaking engagement with Melinda Gates.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Mm-hmm.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: But that was the last thing on my calendar for the day. And let me tell you, I literally put this thing in a-- in a shelf that I didn't even know I had. Because I was like--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Girl.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: --that-- that's crazy. And in-between, I had a 30-minute break in between one of my meetings. And all I wanted to do was write. So I opened up Microsoft Word and quickly jotted down like, thoughts real quick. And I was like, who do you go to process the death of the person who helps you process life?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And I was like, all right. I finished the talk at like, 8 o'clock. By 8:05, I was on my couch sobbing, because it was like, OK, now that-- let's take it off the shelf and actually function with it. It was so shocking.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And I was just like, I just have to write about it. So the next day-- I actually had written about it from day one, except-- when I first heard it, I was like-- I felt like I just wanted to tweet about it for a hot second. And I was like, nope, you can't even follow up what will come, so just let it be.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right. I see.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And the day after, I posted-- because I wrote this piece, because that's how I process stuff-- and I posted it. And instantly, everybody was like, what? Because Wednesdays are the days where I don't do meetings, typically. So I was like, I can deal with it on Wednesday. Like, I have time to deal with it on Wednesday.
And writing about it, people's responses to it-- everybody was like, first of all, I never even thought about my therapist dying. Like, the idea that your therapist, who is the person who really-- you just kind of take for granted that they're there, even though you pay them to be there, you know?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That's right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Who was the person who goes-- who helps you process the death of the person who helps you process life?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That's right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And the grief is different. The grief is different because this is not a friend. This is not a colleague. You knew each other very much in a one-sided, transactional thing.
But it's a meaningful relationship. And somebody on Twitter put it like this-- they were like, when your therapist dies, one of the things that makes it really tough is that all the things about you that were a secret that was no longer a secret, because they knew, are now officially secrets again. I was like, that's it, that's it.
I had my therapist for four years. This woman knew so much about me. She knew me more than I knew me, because she knew-- she would like, pick out certain things, and she made everything seem so simple. She was like, we'll unpack that.
And she was just calm in spirit. And it was just a relationship that we had for four years where I didn't know-- I didn't know anything about her. When I posted my blog post, her brother commented. Her brother-- that was my baby sister.
And I was like, oh my god. Like, I started thinking through like, what would she say to me right now if I was sitting across from her being like, you died? Like, how am I supposed to deal with that? My triggers are going off.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right, right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And I had to kind of use all the tools-- I used all-- I had to use all the tools that she had taught me over the last four years to deal with her own death. And I'm like, I'm so thankful to the work that she did with me that allowed me to even function. And the one thing that-- the first thing I thought about when I found out she died, which is so selfish, is I never got a chance to show her that she's in my book.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I didn't-- I was going to surprise her when I got the final copies of my book, to say, hey, you're in here. And she's on page-- when you get the book, y'all will see she is on page 283.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And-- and while she's looking, y'all, get the book now, if you haven't. Because you should have had that in your car, and bought match send right now.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Because-- this book is as good as it is because of the work me and my therapist have done over the years. I quote her throughout this book, because I'm like, yo, she being there just dragging me [INAUDIBLE] in the most loving way. So to lose her two months before the book came out, at a time where I'm like, I'm going to need your help to deal with all this shit-- shock to my system.
And I didn't even think I fully-- I didn't grieve it yet, really, because it would just be-- some days, I'd be like, holy shit, she-- Dr. Patterson's gone. And other days, I'm just like, hmm, I'm floating. And then other days, I hit a wall because I haven't seen her.
My last appointment with her was December 29th. The day I found out she died, I was supposed to see her the day after. My appointment was the day after.
And I'm like, this is the longest I've gone in four years without therapy. This is the longest I've gone in four years without her being like, so tell me, how was your week? And it's wild. It is wild. It is just like, stunning to have to deal with the death of a therapist.
But I'm glad I talked about it publicly, because I talk about her publicly in general. Like, you know, whenever I come out of a therapy session, if there's a gem that she gave me, I would be like, let me drop this on the people, because it helped me so much. I hope it helps other people.
And one of the ones that she dropped on me last year when the quarantine happened-- because I had to write the book, I was being hyper-productive. I was just like-- I was like, pouring any anxieties I had into my work. And she was like, so what do you think is causing that? And I said, you know, in times of crisis, people either sink or swim. And I don't want to sink.
And she looked at me and was just like, do you have to sink or swim? What if you just float? Shit!
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Girl-- correct.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: What if you just float? I said, float?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Float? I didn't even know that was an option. And I posted that online, and everybody was like goddamn, your therapist just dragged me, too. I say, duh, right? She was amazing. So--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Girl, dragged all of us, all right? So to lose her, I was like, man, I hope the legacy of her work is definitely in the woman that I am. It's in this book-- she is-- she is in this book. And for that, I'm grateful.
Like, she's done incredible, game-changing work because through the work that she did with me, I'm able to share all this stuff. I'm able to write this book. I'm able to be more vulnerable than I've ever been.
And to have people who knew her in real life as Yvonne Patterson, not Dr. Patterson, message me and be like, this tribute means so much, that, for me, means so much. So I'm going to get my book sent to her mom. I'm going to get my book sent to her best friend.
And I hope they know that her life was not in vain. And she died suddenly, but listen, she leaves a legacy of beloved clients everywhere, people who clearly love her, who knew her in real life. And yeah, I'm grateful for that.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to ask-- and you know, everybody has to be-- show grace, and a spirit of pivoting. Because this is I didn't expect it to go there, but I see people in the chat, like, it's resonating with them. This is going to save somebody's life. I mean--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Come on. Go to therapy.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Therapy, for Black women, it is so revolutionary. I am about to--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I would not be OK if I didn't have mine, OK?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Girl, listen--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I'd be curled up on a couch somewhere, or dead. Seriously.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Listen, two months of not having her get me together, I'm over here in a shambles. I feel like a frayed wire, you know? Like, right now, I'm-- I'm like, hyper-productive. Like, she's not even going to be like, so what are you afraid of? So I have to like, channel her again.
I haven't started looking for a new therapist because I was like, I ain't even got time. Here's the problem with-- with looking for a new therapist. And it's so selfish, it's so selfish.
I'm like, damn, now I got to tell you all my traumas and triggers, and be like, catch you up, and be like, let me tell you why I'm a mess. Let me tell you why I'm trash. OK, here's the things that trigger me, all right? I have a spirit of vulnerability. I have a fear--
Like, now I got to start over. And that shit, I'm like, damn! Dr. Patterson, did you take notes? Where are my notes at? Because I--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I got to start over. And that feels like a lot.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Once the--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Girl, I don't know. I don't know--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I was like, if something happened to you, god forbid, do your husband know my name? Do people know me, so we can refer to another person in the practice, because I need it.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: But let me tell you, the good thing about this is-- because I talked about this, and because people were like, oh my god-- like, even therapists were like, I never thought about what my clients would do if I suddenly go. Like, therapists are now being like, let me come up with a transition plan if something happens to me, if I get incapacitated.
And one thing that I've loved about this experience of sharing about how my therapist died is, I ask people to do what you did. The next time you see your therapist, thank them for the work that they're doing, for how important that they are. And they might even need to hear that, because therapists are regular people.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: They sure are.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: They're regular people just like us who have this job. But we-- man, my therapist-- I wouldn't even try to ask her a question, and she would turn it right back on me.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Because it wasn't about-- she'd be like, nope. Anyway-- and she would do it so lovingly and gently. So yeah, you know, there's-- people, if you are a therapist, please-- hopefully, you have a therapist. But come up with a transition plan, all right?
Because this is stuff that we never think about. This is-- you never think about your therapist dying. That shit is some-- it's a different type of trauma. Because literally, the person who you would go to to be like, help me figure this out, is the person that's no longer here. So it is shocking, yeah.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah. Listen, I wanted to sit now. We have to take a moment and let the spirit move us, because I got other questions. I want to talk about imposter syndrome, and how you dug deep into that, and more. But I had to pay homage to you know, that process for you, right? Because we keep moving--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yeah, man.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --and moving, and the past year has been crazy. So thank you for sharing that.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: My pleasure. I am glad I can.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes. So a couple more minutes, a couple more minutes.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: All good.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: This book, we talked about it being a-- it's going to be a best seller.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Amen. Amen.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: What I need to know is, what are you going to do first? Do you dance with your husband? Do you call your mama? Like, what do you do? As soon as this--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I don't even know.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --comes out?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: The first time, when book one hit "The New York Times" Best Sellers list, I called my mom and my sister.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: They're the first ones I called. And then I called my speakers' agent, because I was like, the levels just went up. The fees just went up. Let them know I'm not cheap. Um-- OK?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Put some respect on my check.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And he literally was like-- put some respect on my check, and on my name, and on this freakin' zero. Add an extra zero. I went from four figures to five figures instantly that day.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Ooh! Amen.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Amen. And I ain't looked back since. Let's go ahead and keep adding these coins to it, OK?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [LAUGHS]
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: So this time, when-- when, because it's done, OK? When I hit the "Times" list, yeah, I'm probably going to-- my husband will be the one who hears it first. And then I will probably-- I don't know, I'll probably just-- I don't even know what I'm to do. Like, I have no clue.
Because I've been looking at March 2nd is the goal, right?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Like, I've been like-- I've been in the work. Shout out to my team, they are working so hard.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Your team is incredible.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: My team--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Incredible team.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: They are amazing. Team All Love, Team PRH, Team SkyBlue Media, they are amazing. And I've just been [AUDIO OUT] goal line. Like-- I want people to know this is the book that you need, like, the book that you will buy for somebody else, the book that will transform your life.
Because I am on a mission to have a million people fight their fears because of this book. I'm on a mission to create a million professional troublemakers. Like, I want a million people to tell me how this book has changed your life, and I'm looking forward to that. So--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: OK.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm probably just going to be like-- I might weep for bit. And then, because-- yes, I'm a frayed wire nowadays. I'm over here like, y'all, launches-- already, I grind too hard. And then you add the launches to it?
Child, let me tell you, there is going to be a day when y'all don't hear from me for like, two weeks. Like, this--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [INAUDIBLE]
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: That might be my gift to myself. Y'all not going to hear from me for two weeks. You gonna be like, where's-- y'all-- because this run, I'm running because I see the finish line. And then once I get to the finish line, I'm gonna be like, I'm taking a break. But yeah, I'm just--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Somebody said--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I'm just out here.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --make it happen. Somebody just said, Luvv Nation will make it happen.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Let me just say something--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Luvv Nation is incredible. I got to speak to the people--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes! I love Luvv Nation.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [INAUDIBLE]. We've been out here for what, 20 minutes? For the people who have been asking, because it is still Black History Month, what can I do to support a Black woman? What can I do to support Black people? Where do I-- don't ask this question no more.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: OK.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Don't ask-- it's not that complicated. Buy it now. Buy it for other people.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And that's how you invest. That is--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That is how you help. You heard her dream, right? You heard what she wants to do-- invest in it. It's simple.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: It is that simple.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Place an order for this book. Buy it for somebody. And Luvv Nation is amazing.
Like, I have such an amazing community of people who follow me online. I call them the Luvv Cousins, you know what I mean? They call each other the Luvv Cousins in my app.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: We are. Yep.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And you know, the Luvv Cousins be showing up for a G. Like, the Luvv Cousins be showing up. And I am so grateful for it.
And it's one of the things that I'm proudest of, is that I've built this community of people who just will show that community is a verb. And people are ordering multiple copies of the book, and I'm so-- Like, y'all don't understand.
I be in my-- I be deep in my feelings. I be deep in my feelings, because y'all really be like, I'm gonna support you. I'mma buy the audiobook. I'mma buy the hardcover. I'm coming to this tour. Right now, in case anybody's listening--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Wait a minute, let's talk about that.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Let's talk about that tour.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That tour, right. Y'all, don't just buy the book, show up for the tour. Do that, too. Me and my people--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yo--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --are gonna be there on the 7th, in Atlanta, virtually, OK, with [INAUDIBLE] I cannot wait.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: If anybody is listening to this, and you're like, I want to support. I don't have the budget. I was furloughed, I'm a student, I'm a mom, I'm a essential worker-- I am giving away 500 tickets to my tour. If you buy a ticket to the tour, it comes with a signed book.
The reason why this is important to me is, I don't want people to not be able to get this information, and get this affirmation, and get this permission if they don't have money. So my friends, my friends also show up for me. They bought over 500 tickets. And actually, we're probably at 1,000 now that we're going to be giving away to people who need to get this message.
So for you to get that, if you are here, if you know somebody who needs a break, who needs some type of love, and is deserving of good things, go to troublemakertour.com, and sign them up. Because they might get a free ticket to my tour. I think it's so important for people to receive this message. The line-up is strong! Yes!
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Girl--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: So for you to-- to buy tickets-- to buy tickets to the actual tour, if you want to buy tickets, go to professionaltroublemakerbook.com. And then if you want, and need a free ticket because it just ain't in your budget, which I understand, go to troublemakertour.com. I have all the information on my profile, by the way, so y'all can see it.
But it's so important. We wanted to make sure we giving back to people who give back all the time, and who are the underrated rock stars of the world. So y'all, come on on this tour, on us. And then if you have the actual money, if you got the actual money, go ahead. Buy a ticket for a young girl in your life. Buy a ticket for a friend.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That's it.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Buy a ticket for somebody random online, because that also was happening through the kindness train. I'm-- listen, I am always trapped in the glass case of my-- of feelings, and of emotions. And right now is a moment when I am definitely doing it. Like, I am definitely all up in my feelings, and feeling all the gratitude from y'all.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes. And that's because you are operating in your purpose. That's why. That's why--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Amen.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --people are showing up. Some fun-- OK, rapid-fire "MAKERS Minute," OK? And then I'll let you go.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Aight. Let's do it.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: OK. And show us grace, y'all. Don't nobody time us and say, she went past 60 seconds.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Right.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Black History Month, so let's do it.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: It's-- we do what we want in Black History Month. And then also in March, which is Women's History Month. And then in April, which is April. Like, we're going to do all these things, because want to.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And then we show out because the sun is out, and it's hotter in May. So you know, just show us a little grace. All right--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: The tour is virtual, by the way. It's virtual. There's no in-person tours, because it's a panorama happening, OK? So we are-- it's all virtual. You can be--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: A what?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: --showing up in your pajamas.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: A what is happening?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: A panorama is happening right now. And you can be in your pajamas and attend this tour. So anywhere you are. Mm-hmm.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I cannot wait. March 17th, I will be there with bells on, in my living room. All right--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes, indeed.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --really quick, favorite Nigerian food next to jollof rice?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Pounded yam and egusi stew.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Mm, yes. You hear that, Eden? I want some of that. Thank you, [INAUDIBLE]. Early riser, or a night owl?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Night owl.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Same, girl. Drive yourself around, or be driven like Miss Daisy?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Be driven, absolutely.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [LAUGHS] Best word to describe you, other than troublemaker?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm-- damn.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: See, this is why we need grace.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: You see-- OK, let me see. Let me think. Best word to describe me outside of troublemaker-- honorable.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Ooh, I like that. I like that.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Word.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Something you're afraid of?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm-- driving, oddly enough. I don't drive. I ain't got no license. I ain't got no license.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: We got to talk about that. That's funny.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: [LAUGHS]
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Something-- something you wish you did more of?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Rest.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Mm. Yeah. Biggest vice during the pandemic?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Biggest vice?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah. Girl--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Ooh!
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: What?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Damn, that's good. Let me see, biggest vice-- what have I been doing with my time besides working, because I've been working my ass off.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Something you've been eating?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Maybe like-- I haven't been eating too crazy. I actually haven't.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Good for you. I have.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I haven't. [LAUGHS] You know what, sometimes, I'll watch-- I'll binge-watch something for like, a weekend. Yeah.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: OK. That's a vice. OK.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yeah, it's not a big vice. I ain't got that many vices. See, I'm so boring. Like, I ain't got that many vices. I'm very much on the straight and narrow.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: You can have some of mine, because mine-- well, one of mine is eating cinnamon rolls, child, and I need to stop it.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Ooh! Ooh--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah, I know.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: --yes, I'll take that.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I'll take it.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Right. Favorite hype song from your "Professional Troublemaker" playlist?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: "Knuck If You Buck."
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Girl! To get into it before this, I had to listen to [INAUDIBLE]--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: So we knuckin' and buckin' and ready to fight-- listen, you literally be ready to fight somebody, and there ain't nobody did nothing to you. Ain't nobody did nothing to you.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Ha! And as soon--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: You be like, let's go.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --as you hear that son, you just transform into a different person. So--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: You really do! Like, you know how many fights "Knuck If You Buck" started while we was in college at the club? Like--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Hello?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: OK, "Knuck If You Buck" started fights, all right? And it's-- it's amazing.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: If someone is coming in the club shaking my dreads, it's a rap. I'm done by then.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: It's a rap! It's a rap. And you got to knuck it to somebody, and then-- again, "Knuck If You Buck" is just an amazing song. It is just-- it's so violent and amazing.
Like-- and honestly, I have a welcome mat. My welcome mat says, "Knuck If You Buck."
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Girl. I have to get that.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I do have a "Knuck If You Buck" welcome mat. Yeah.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Mm. OK, I got to get one of those. Writing--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: [LAUGHS]
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Writing, or podcasting?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Writing.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: OK. Hardcover, or audio books?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Hardcover. I-- I need to feel the pages. When I-- so I'm a visual learner. When I listen to audiobooks, I don't retain them well.
So I'll be fine-- I'll be fine. I'll be like, OK, I'm gonna listen to this audiobook. And then I look up-- I probably fell asleep. So I'm a--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [LAUGHS]
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I need the book.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Girl, I'm the same. Same, same, same, same. I cannot do it. Jordans or wingtips?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Ooh! You tryna play me!
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: No. I'm-- I'm--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: You tried--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I tried.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: --to play me! You did try it! Ooh! Wingtips, B. I'mma go wingtips. I'mma go-- damn. That's bogus.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: You know what?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: OK.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That is bogus. I know. I know. I-- look, I was going to ask you, lipstick or lip gloss, but we all know you the queen of the red lip.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Lip-- listen, the older I get, the drier I want my lipstick. I don't want no shiny lips. I need my lipstick to be dry. I need-- hold on, let me go ahead, because in case-- y'all got me messed up, wait-- I need my-- lip gloss? Uh! Uh-uh, give me the matte. I need a matte.
JANAY S. HAWKINS: Girl, this is the--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Lip gloss is--
JANAY S. HAWKINS: And we've been talking, and we got to refresh. That's how that goes.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: We got to refresh! I need matte. Come on, man. What? Yeah. Yeah.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Blazer or fedora?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Why-- why, why, why must you choose violence? Why must you choose violence?
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I know-- because you put "Knuck If You Buck"--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Why--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: You put "Knuck If You Buck" on your list, so that's why I'm choosing violence.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Why must you choose violence? So you know I got a blazer. I mean, you got-- I got a fedora right here, right? Like, I just be-- I just be in my house with hats around me, OK? Look, I can't even put it on. Like--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [LAUGHS] Oh, man.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Why would you choose violence? I will pick-- I will pick, I think, a good fedora. A fedora just sets it off. Give me a fedora and a T-shirt, and I'll look like I'm dressed up, and I got-- like I got sense.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I love you, though. That's why I'm asking these questions. It gets better. Phone, or video chat? Phone, or video chat?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Ooh.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Oh, I'm notorious for FaceTime-ing people, and not telling them I'm calling--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Same. My friends know, Boz-- I be randomly FaceTime-ing Boz, and she be in meetings and shit. And Boz will actually pick up the phone and be like, hey girl, (WHISPERING) I'm in meetings. Why you pick up if you in meetings? Because she ain't--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes, I do that, too. Breonna and Mia, anytime, I always-- we gonna FaceTime. I don't care--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yeah.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: And they got kids.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Look, y'all gonna deal.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: [LAUGHS] Greatest dream you'd like to see realized for Black women?
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Mm. I want Black women to be free-- free to dream, to be, to live, to laugh, to rest-- I want us to be free. That's what I want for Black women.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Same, girl, same. Listen, we are beyond time. That's what happens when you put two people in a room and kiki together and love on each other. That's what happens.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Right. Me and Janay just be kiki-ing when we see each other in real life, OK? In real life-- this is what we do in real life.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: In real life. And people will interrupt and say, ooh, can I talk to you for a second? Like at ADCOLOR. And we'll just keep going. We will talk for hours.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: We just keep-- we just keep going. Listen, people will meet me sometimes out, and they'll-- When I'm in conversation with somebody, I'm in conversation. So they'll like, try to talk to me, and then I can't focus on them, so they think I'm being rude. And I'm like, no, I'm just focusing on this person, right? So yeah--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. It's all love. It is always good to see you. Always.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Yes, indeed.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I'm speaking it-- best seller, OK? And I'm--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Amen.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: --going to blow your phone up. I'll text you. I think I got your address, too, from our MAKERS distro. But when that happens, you know I'm nothing but four hours away. East [INAUDIBLE] to Chicago. So I might have to socially distance come see you at some point.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Listen, come through, come through. And shout out to everybody who has already ordered this book. Y'all-- I'm so nervous for next week.
I don't know why I'm nervous. I know it's going to be great. I know it's going to go well. But I think my-- I'm just like, to have the thing that you've been working on for so long to be dropped in the world, yo, I'm over here like, what is next week about to be? And I'm--
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: I can't wait.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: --excited. I'm excited for you all to read this book. I'm excited to hear what you think about it. Tag me on it. When you get this book, when you read it, please review it on Amazon and all these platforms, because it matters.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yes.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: And yeah, man, y'all know how to find me.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Yeah. And it is such a blessing, y'all. I'm not just saying this because I adore her and love her. It really is an amazing, amazing masterpiece. People, there's a generation that's going to know you as an iconic speaker and author. Seriously.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Oh my god!
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Seriously, seriously. So thank you for being a vessel, honey. Thank you so much--
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: I love you.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: Love you, too.
LUVVIE AJAYI JONES: Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing space with me. And-- and if y'all can just remember, nobody wins when fear wins, OK? Nobody wins when fear wins.
And more to come-- and y'all catch me on these interwebs.
JA'NAY S. HAWKINS: That's it. That's it. Well, thank y'all so much. Be kind and good to yourselves and each other. Y'all have a great weekend. Peace and light. Bye, you all. Thank you.
