Foreign Information Allowed, Trump Team Says: Impeachment Update
(Bloomberg) -- Senators on Wednesday held the first of two days of questioning House managers and Donald Trump’s defense lawyers, before the president’s impeachment trial moves to the pivotal question of whether to call witnesses to testify.
Here are the latest developments:
Foreign Information Allowed, Trump Team Says (10:47 p.m.)
“Mere information” from a foreign country about a U.S. political candidate isn’t unlawful election interference, Trump attorney Patrick Philbin said.
He was responding to Democrat Chris Coons’ question about whether the president agrees that foreign involvement in U.S. elections is illegal.
Coons was referring to Trump’s interview with ABC News in June 2019, in which the president said “there’s nothing wrong with listening” if a foreign country wanted to provide information on a 2020 election opponent. “It’s not interference, it’s information,” Trump said.
Philbin said that while foreigners can’t vote in U.S. elections and foreign financial contributions are restricted, “mere information is not something that would violate the campaign finance laws.“
“The idea that any information that happens to come from overseas is necessarily campaign interference is a mistake,” Philbin said. “If it’s credible, information is relevant information for the voters to know about for people to be able to decide on who is the best candidate for an office.”
Lead House manager Adam Schiff responded that that means “everything’s OK as long as the president believes it’s in his re-election interest.”
He noted that one of the U.S. intelligence community’s highest priorities is to prevent foreign interference similar to Russia’s campaign in 2016, including hacking and leaking information from Democrats’ computers and a massive social media campaign.
According to the Trump team, Schiff said, “It’s now OK to criminally conspire with another country to get help in a presidential election as long as the president believes it would help his campaign and therefore help our country.”
“That’s what they call policy,” Schiff said. “I’m sorry, that’s what I call corruption.”
Chief Justice’s Role on Witnesses Debated (9:06 p.m.)
Prosecution and defense lawyers sparred over what role Chief Justice John Roberts would play in overseeing testimony by witnesses if any are subpoenaed.
Trump lawyer Patrick Philbin said House managers are incorrect to say that Roberts can handle any rulings regarding witnesses who resist subpoenas. Instead, he said, such questions would have to be taken to court or decided through negotiations.
“That would have to be sorted out,” Philbin said.
If a witness is called to testify, Roberts could make initial rulings on specific questions about evidence but the Senate could overrule him by majority vote, Philbin said.
Lead House manager Adam Schiff disagreed, saying the chief justice can rule on questions of whether witnesses must testify and whether their testimony is admissible -- and he promised that House managers wouldn’t appeal any of Roberts’ rulings on witnesses. “Will the president’s counsel do the same?” he said.
Trump attorney Jay Sekulow said later the president’s team will not go along.
”We have had this question and we say very clearly: we are not willing to do that,” said Sekulow. ”With no disrespect to the chief justice, that is not the constitutional design.”
Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen said he’ll offer a proposal Friday that would require Roberts to subpoena witnesses and documents if he decided they were relevant, and rule on any claims of executive privilege “to expedite the trial.” The Senate has already rejected a similar proposal.
Sekulow Has Some Witnesses He’d Like to Call (8:16 p.m.)
If Democrats get to call witnesses for the trial, Trump lawyer Jay Sekulow said he’s got some witnesses he would like to call -- House manager Adam Schiff, Joe and Hunter Biden, the anonymous whistle-blower, and perhaps officials on Schiff’s committee who spoke with the whistle-blower.
“If we get everybody we want we would be here for a very, very long time,” Sekulow said. “To say that this is not going to extend this proceeding? Months!”
“This would be the first of many weeks,” he said.
Turning toward the House managers, Sekulow said they have said they’ve proved every aspect of their case. “Then I don’t think we need any witnesses,” he said.
Schiff responded that for that matter, he’d like to question Trump, “but we’re not here to indulge in fantasy and abstraction.”
He said Trump’s lawyers are threatening to “tie you and your entire chamber up in knots for weeks and months.” But he said testimony by former National Security Advisor John Bolton could be handled quickly, with Chief Justice John Roberts ruling on any issues involving classified material.
Graham Says GOP Has Votes to Call Biden Son (7:30 p.m.)
GOP Senator Lindsey Graham predicted that all 53 Republicans would vote to call Joe Biden’s son Hunter Biden as a witness if Democrats get enough votes to subpoena any witnesses.
“The only thing I know for sure, that if we call one witness, there’ll be 53 votes -- not 51, not 52, but 53 -- to call Hunter Biden because he’s incredibly relevant as to whether or not the president, Trump, had a reason to believe that corruption was afoot in the Ukraine,” said Graham.
Democrats say Hunter Biden, who served on the board of a Ukrainian gas company, is irrelevant to the impeachment charges against Trump and has no knowledge of the president’s conduct related to Ukraine.
Schiff Disputes Dershowitz on Abuse of Power (7:14 p.m.)
Lead House manager Adam Schiff rejected Trump lawyer Alan Dershowitz’s argument that abuse of power is too vague a charge to justify impeaching and removing a president, and that criminal conduct is required.
That argument “would have terrified the founders,” Schiff said.
Otherwise, Schiff said senators would be saying “he can do anything he wants, he can abuse his office and do so sacrificing our national security, undermining the integrity of the elections. And there’s nothing Congress can do about it.”
Minutes earlier, Dershowitz had argued that if President Barack Obama or a president Hillary Clinton were impeached on similar grounds, the law professors who say Dershowitz is wrong would be saying he’s right.
Schiff said Trump’s backers can’t write off all impeachment supporters as “never Trumpers.” In addition, Schiff said the charges against Trump do encompass criminal activity.
“We think there’s a crime here of bribery or extortion,” Schiff said. Even if Trump’s actions don’t fit the current definition of bribery, he said, opponents can’t plausibly argue “that it’s not akin to bribery -- it is bribery.”
Bolton Lawyer Seeks NSC Response on Book (6:03 p.m.)
John Bolton’s lawyer said Wednesday he hasn’t heard back from the National Security Council on his request that it review the Ukraine portion of his client’s book quickly in case he’s called to testify in Trump’s trial.
Attorney Chuck Cooper released a Jan. 24 email that told the NSC, “Given that Ambassador Bolton could be called to testify as early as next week, it is imperative that we have the results of your review of that chapter as soon as possible.”
The NSC had notified Cooper on Jan. 23 that Bolton’s manuscript couldn’t be published in its current form because it contains “significant amounts of classified information.”
Cooper’s letter also said, “We do not believe that any of that information could reasonably be considered classified.”
In releasing his response to the NSC Wednesday, Cooper said, “I have received no response whatever to my urgent request for the NSC’s immediate guidance.”
Trump Lawyer Calls Bolton ‘Disgruntled’ (5:44 p.m.)
No one told the White House counsel’s office that publication of former National Security Advisor John Bolton’s forthcoming book would cause problems for Trump, said Deputy White House Counsel Patrick Philbin.
Responding to questions from Democrats, Philbin said the counsel’s office had been notified by the National Security Council staff that the NSC was reviewing the book to ensure it didn’t contain classified material.
“No one from inside the White House or outside the White House told us that publication of the book would be problematic for the president,“ Philbin said, though he said he assumed Bolton was “disgruntled” and “wouldn’t have nice things to say about the president.”
Asked whether the White House tried to discourage publication of the book, Philbin pointed to a Jan. 23 letter to Bolton’s attorney, in which an NSC staffer said the book contained classified material and couldn’t be published in its current form.
GOP Senators Ask About Trump’s Biden Queries (5:14 p.m.)
GOP Senators Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski asked Trump’s lawyers whether the president ever mentioned Joe Biden or his son Hunter in connection with corruption in Ukraine before Biden entered the presidential race in early 2019.
The question is significant because Democrats say the fact that Biden is a leading Democratic contender to run against Trump in 2020 is the reason why the president wanted Ukraine to investigate him.
Trump attorney Patrick Philbin said he couldn’t point to anything in the impeachment trial record about Trump targeting Biden before the Democrat’s candidacy. Then he gave a timeline about investigations in Ukraine by Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, as well as a handful of news articles that mentioned Hunter Biden’s role as a board member of Ukrainian gas company Burisma Holdings.
Schumer Says ‘Uphill Fight’ to Get Witnesses (4:32 p.m.)
Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer said it’s an uphill fight to get enough Republicans to agree to call witnesses, but Democrats still have a “decent good chance.”
“We’ve always known it will be an uphill fight on witnesses and on documents because the president and Mitch McConnell put huge pressure on these folks,” Schumer said.
Democrats have been “relentless” on the issue and “we’ve won over theAmerican people,” he said. That has put pressure on Republicans, the minority leader said.
“Is it more like than not?” Schumer said. “Probably no, but is it a decent good chance? Yes.”
Parnas Says Trump ‘Knew What Was Going On’ (4:15 p.m.)
Rudy Giuliani’s indicted associate Lev Parnas led a group of reporters through a Senate office building to Minority Leader Chuck Schumer’s office.
Parnas told a reporter he hoped “we’re going to get the truth.”
Asked what the truth is, he said, “that the president knew what was going on.” How does Parnas know that? “Because I was directly working for him.”
Parnas said the last time he talked to Giuliani was “the day I got arrested” and that if he could say anything to him he would say, “tell the truth, Rudy.”
Parnas didn’t go into the gallery to watch the trial because he can’t get past security with his GPS ankle bracelet, said his lawyer Joseph Bondy. Parnas was indicted on campaign finance charges.
Mixed Motives Not Corrupt, Dershowitz Says (2:43 p.m.)
Law professor Alan Dershowitz argued that a president can’t be impeached for taking actions that are partly motivated by a desire to help his own re-election.
“Every public official that I know believes that his election is in the public interest,” Dershowitz said in response to a question from Republican Senator Ted Cruz. “And if a president does something which he believes will help him get elected in the public interest, that cannot be the kind of quid pro quo that results in impeachment.”
Such a standard would allow almost any president to be impeached, he said.
“Everybody has mixed motives,” Dershowitz said. Presidents often check with pollsters and political advisers as well as policy advisers, and then balance the public interest with their own or their political party’s interest, he said. Actions taken with mixed motives can’t be considered corrupt, he said.
White House Moves to Delay Bolton Book (1:21 p.m.)
The White House moved to delay publication of former National Security Advisor John Bolton’s memoir, which the New York Times has reported describes Trump directly tying the release of Ukraine aid money to an announcement of an investigation of the Trump’s Democratic rival Joe Biden.
A national security official sent a Jan. 23 letter to Bolton attorney Charles Cooper saying the manuscript cannot be published in its current form because it contains “significant amounts of classified information.”
Bolton had sent the manuscript to the White House National Security Council in December for a pre-publication review to check for classified information, as required for former officials who had access to secret information.
The letter to Cooper indicates the National Security Council will follow up with “detailed guidance” on what should be removed from the manuscript.
Senators Begin Questioning Lawyers (1:16 p.m.)
The Senate began Wednesday’s session, which will provide eight hours for senators’ questions for Trump’s defense team and the House prosecutors. The questions will continue for up to eight hours on Thursday as well.
Senators will submit their questions in writing to U.S. Chief Justice John Roberts, who will read them out loud, alternating between Republican and Democratic questions. Roberts asked the defense and prosecution to limit their answers to five minutes each.
Democrats are likely to use their questions to highlight the need to call witnesses, especially former White House National Security Advisor John Bolton.
Democrat Says Bolton Flagged Envoy Ouster (12:57 p.m.)
Former Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton privately urged Democrats to probe the administration’s handling of Ukraine shortly after his departure from the White House, said House Foreign Affairs Chairman Eliot Engel.
Bolton suggested in a Sept. 23 phone call that Democrats investigate Trump’s ouster of U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch, Engel said in a statement.
“He strongly implied that something improper had occurred around her removal as our top diplomat in Kyiv,” Engel said.
Earlier Wednesday, Trump questioned on Twitter why Bolton didn’t say anything about allegations of improprieties in the administration’s handling of Ukraine policy when he announced he was leaving the White House on Sept. 10.
“Why didn’t John Bolton complain about this ‘nonsense’ a long time ago, when he was very publicly terminated,” Trump tweeted. “He said, not that it matters, NOTHING!”
Romney Firm in Wanting Bolton to Testify (12:42 p.m.)
Senator Mitt Romney said he made clear to fellow Republicans that he is firm in backing former Trump National Security Advisor John Bolton as a crucial witness in deciding the impeachment case.
“I have a great deal of confidence in John Bolton,” Romney, a former GOP presidential candidate, told reporters. “He’s a brilliant individual.”
Bolton is likely to be able to answer key questions such as what explanation Trump gave advisers when he decided to delay military aid for Ukraine, Romney said.
Bolton may also be able to tell senators whether “the president himself communicated to Ukraine” that the aid was being held up “in order to encourage them to investigate the Bidens,” Romney said.
“These are questions that relate to important issues I would like to get the answers to,” Romney added.
Parnas at Capitol, Can’t Attend Senate Trial (12:28 p.m.)
Lev Parnas, the indicted associate of Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, is planning to give a news conference on the Capitol steps outside the impeachment trial this afternoon, his lawyer Joseph Bondy says.
Bondy plans to attend the trial in the Senate gallery, with a ticket that Minority Leader Chuck Schumer helped arrange, the lawyer said.
Parnas and Bondy last week released a video recording of Trump calling for the firing of U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch in 2018. The video was made during an April 2018 dinner at the Trump International Hotel in Washington.
Bondy said Wednesday that Parnas isn’t allowed to attend the trial because his GPS ankle monitor isn’t allowed in the Senate gallery. He wrote on Twitter Tuesday he and Parnas are supporting “a fair trial, with witnesses & evidence.”
Thune Warns of ‘Drawn-Out’ Witness Process (12:10 p.m.)
Second-ranking Senate Republican John Thune said that if senators vote later this week to consider hearing from witnesses, it’s going to be a “long, drawn-out, protracted process, in which both sides are going to want to have their pound of flesh.”
“It’s not like, gee, the Democrats get to call Bolton,” said Thune of South Dakota, referring to former National Security Advisor John Bolton. “We have a lot of members, and the president’s counsel, obviously, who are going to want to call witnesses the Democrats are not going to like.”
If the Senate votes not to consider witness subpoenas, he said, the trial will go into “the free-for-all zone” in which senators will be making various proposals on how to proceed.
“I suspect motions will be offered -- one of which obviously could be to go to final arguments,” Thune said.
Trump Jokes About Thanking GOP Senators (11:27 a.m.)
Trump on Wednesday thanked GOP senators by name for their work passing the U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade pact, joking that he had ulterior motives for acknowledging them.
“Maybe I’m being just nice to them because I want their vote,” he said at a White House event to sign the agreement.
Trump made the comment as the Senate is in its second week of Trump’s impeachment trial.
Manchin Backs Having Hunter Biden as Witness (9:08 a.m.)
Democratic Senator Joe Manchin says he believes Hunter Biden is a “relevant witness” in the Senate impeachment trial, a stance that breaks with his party’s.
The West Virginia Democrat told MSNBC on Wednesday he would “absolutely” vote to call former Vice President Joe Biden’s son as a witness, as long as Chief Justice John Roberts, who is presiding over the trial, rules him pertinent to the case.
“I want to hear everything I can,” Manchin said.
The Senate could vote on whether to allow witnesses on Friday. Democrats are pushing for more testimony, particularly from former National Security Advisor John Bolton, who has said he has relevant information to share. Some moderate Republicans have also said they may want to hear from witnesses.
So far, most Democrats have resisted Republican suggestions to call Hunter Biden, saying doing so would be solely for political reasons, and that he doesn’t have relevant information about Trump withholding aide to the Ukraine in an attempt to force that country to announce an investigation into the Bidens.
Bolton Risked ‘World War Six,’ Trump Says (7:55 a.m.)
Trump on Wednesday trashed Bolton for writing a “nasty & untrue book” as the Senate debates whether to call Bolton as a witness in the president’s impeachment trial.
In a series of tweets, Trump said he named Bolton as his top security aide even though others told him “don’t do it, sir,“ and fired Bolton because “if I listened to him, we would be in World War Six by now.“ Trump did not mention Bolton by name in the tweets.
The president said Bolton’s forthcoming book, which reportedly says that Trump told Bolton he was withholding security aid from Ukraine until the country offered help with investigations related to Biden, contains “All Classified National Security” a sign he could try and block Bolton from testifying before the Senate.
Trump urged Republicans in a subsequent tweet not to “let the Dems play you,” by convincing them to support calling witnesses.
Senators are expected to vote on Friday whether to hear testimony from witnesses in the impeachment trial. Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has pushed for a swift trial with no testimony, but some moderate Republicans have said they want to hear from witnesses -- calls that grew louder after the New York Times reported Sunday on the contents of Bolton’s book.
Senators’ Questioning of Lawyers to Begin (6 a.m.)
Senators will submit their questions in writing to Chief Justice John Roberts, who will read them aloud for the lawyers to answer.
There’s no official time limit for each answer by prosecution or defense lawyers, although Roberts suggested that five minutes should be enough. Republicans and Democrats will alternate submitting questions.
On Friday, the Senate is expected to debate and vote on whether to call witnesses including former National Security Adviser John Bolton. Republican leaders are trying to tamp down sentiment for subpoenaing Bolton to discuss his reported claim in an upcoming book that Trump tied aid for Ukraine to investigations of his political rival Joe Biden.
Several Republican senators said Tuesday they were undecided on whether to subpoena witnesses. Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said during a private meeting that he didn’t yet have the votes to block witnesses, a Senate GOP aide said.
Many Republicans have said House Democrats lack first-hand evidence that Trump tied Ukraine aid to investigations, while Democrats say Bolton could provide that first-hand information.
Catch Up on Impeachment Coverage
Bombshell Bolton Report Pressures GOP on Impeachment Witnesses
Trump Caught on Tape Saying ‘Get Rid Of’ U.S. Envoy in 2018 (1)
Key Documents
Here is the House Democrats’ web page containing documents related to the impeachment trial. House Democrats’ impeachment brief is here. Trump’s initial reply is here, and his lawyers’ trial brief is here.The House impeachment resolution is H.Res. 755. The Intelligence Committee Democrats’ impeachment report is here.Gordon Sondland’s transcript is here and here; Kurt Volker’s transcript is here and here. Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch’s transcript is here and here; the transcript of Michael McKinley, former senior adviser to the secretary of State, is here. The transcript of David Holmes, a Foreign Service officer at the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv, is here.The transcript of William Taylor, the top U.S. envoy to Ukraine, is here and here. State Department official George Kent’s testimony is here and here. Testimony by Alexander Vindman can be found here, and the Fiona Hill transcript is here. Laura Cooper’s transcript is here; Christopher Anderson’s is here and Catherine Croft’s is here. Jennifer Williams’ transcript is here and Timothy Morrison’s is here. The Philip Reeker transcript is here. Mark Sandy’s is here.
--With assistance from Laura Davison, Billy House, Erik Wasson, Mike Dorning, Laura Curtis, Jordan Fabian, Josh Wingrove, Steven T. Dennis and Laura Litvan.
To contact the reporter on this story: Daniel Flatley in Washington at dflatley1@bloomberg.net
To contact the editors responsible for this story: Joe Sobczyk at jsobczyk@bloomberg.net, Laurie Asséo
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