'RHONY' alum Dorinda Medley talks BravoCon, 'Ultimate Girls Trip,' holiday decorating and more

Dorinda Medley is still making it nice. Gibson Johns interviews the longtime "Real Housewives of New York City" cast member following a whirlwind weekend at BravoCon 2022 about all things Bravo, "Real Housewives," "Ultimate Girls Trip" Season 2 and more. They also discuss Ramona Singer recently calling the future "RHONY: Legacy" a "loser show," why Dorinda and Jill Zarin are still not in a great place, some of the most iconic moments at Dorinda's home in the Berkshires, Blue Stone Manor, and her partnership with Amazon devices and Ring for Halloween.

Video Transcript


GIBSON JOHNS: Hi, guys. Welcome back to "We Should Talk," a pop culture interview series from In The Know. I'm your host, Gibson Johns. And today on the podcast we have Dorinda Medley, formerly of "The Real Housewives of New York," "Real Housewives Ultimate Girls Trip," season 2. Dorinda, we're coming off BravoCon, so we have a lot to talk about-- BravoCon, "Housewives," "Housewives of New York," the reboot, legacy, her feud with Jill.

We also talked about she was doing interviews because she's partnering with Amazon devices and Ring to decorate Bluestone Manor for Halloween. And so we talked a lot about at the beginning and that partnership, and also the iconography of her house and why-- and sort of everything that comes with that, looking back at "Ultimate Girls Trip." And you know, we kind of covered it all.

And it's always just really fun with Dorinda. She always has a lot to say and is really generous with their time and her energy. And you know, I go way back with Dorinda at this point. And it's always just really fun to take some time with her.

I hope we see her back on Legacy. She doesn't know. And I don't think anybody really knows right now. But I hope that changes soon. So yeah, keep listening for my interview with Dorinda Medley. And please rate, review, and subscribe to "We Should Talk" on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.


All right, so we're here with Dorinda Medley, star of "Real Housewives Ultimate Girls Trip," season 2, Ex Wives Club, formerly an icon of "Real Housewives of New York City." She makes it nice. She's the queen of the holidays. I can go on. I can go on. But Dorinda, thank you for being here.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Yes, thank you. We're all Halloweened out here. So Bluestone Manor is in full swing. You know, in some ways, it's my favorite holiday, even more than Christmas. But don't tell.

GIBSON JOHNS: I'm not telling Christmas.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It really is.

GIBSON JOHNS: I'm not telling Christmas. Why is that? Why do you like it-- you feel like you can have more fun with it, almost?

DORINDA MEDLEY: I just think that October is such a-- you know, I think of it as such a magical month. And I just think Halloween just brings us all back to being young. Everybody loves the spooky. Everybody loves to be a little scared. And there's just something-- Bluestone Manor just lends itself to that kind of decor. Like I'd love to keep it up the whole year. It seems like it just fits the house very well.

GIBSON JOHNS: You know what, and I've never been to Bluestone Manor, but I can attest to that via watching on TV and seeing all the pictures from-- because I know that you are-- you're working with Amazon for this holiday for-- with the various devices. And they're going to help you kind of decorate your house. So can you speak to some of that and how that happened?

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, it's my second year working with Amazon and the smart devices. And you know, this year we're working again with the Ring, the Ring doorbell, which is-- you know, and the Echo Show 15, which I'm very excited about. And it's great because I can-- you know, it helps me just organize everything. I can set up routines when someone rings the Ring doorbell. It sets off-- Dracula greets you, which I find incredible


DORINDA MEDLEY: It dims the lights.


DORINDA MEDLEY: And you know what's great is, with the Echo Show 15, I can see everything from my kitchen. I can meet and greet them at the front door. I can see them. They put up a chime security light-- I'm sorry, a Ring security light. And you know, the light goes off.

So it's great to have an integrated system with the smart devices. It makes my routines easier. It means I don't have to leave the kitchen. I can pull up recipes. I can dim the light. I can put on music. I can see everybody at the front door. And it just makes my whole sort of Halloween routine a lot easier.

GIBSON JOHNS: Totally. And we were talking before the interview, Dorinda, about how people are starting to find your house in the Berkshires and like sometimes get on to the premises. But some of these devices are helping you sort of nip that in the bud.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That was sort of the frosting on the cake. When they set up the Ring spotlight and camera, I didn't realize how useful. It kind of was a default thing because I knew that we were going to do the Ring doorbell. I was so excited. We did it last year. I was very excited that Dracula was going to be greeting my guests, which I think is very appropriate for me, because I have--


DORINDA MEDLEY: I kind of have a crush on Dracula. But what I really loved, since the "Ultimate Girls Trip 2"-- I mean, even before. But since the "Ultimate Girls Trip 2," the house has almost become like the Disneyland of the Housewives. I mean, every single day I have people at the gate.

And if I, by chance, leave the gate open, which we did that day, all of a sudden, I was so-- it was so fun because on the Echo Show 15, I could see. When the Ring camera picked it up and put the spotlight on them, I could see it from my kitchen. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, my God, strangers are in my driveway right now.

So that to me has made me feel so much safer. And I can do it from my Fire Stick TV. I can see it on my TV. I can see it from my bedroom. I can see it from anywhere I have the Echo Show 15. I can say, oh, my God, someone's not only at my door now, but pulling up to my driveway. That was scary, actually.

GIBSON JOHNS: That's scary. It's like-- it's like-- it's flattering knowing that people want to visit--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I love my fans. Exactly.

GIBSON JOHNS: --and see where all the moments are. Of course, but it's like, this is your-- also your personal space and where you literally live.



DORINDA MEDLEY: So now I'm going to put up four more of the--

GIBSON JOHNS: I mean, I don't blame you.

DORINDA MEDLEY: --cameras and the spotlights. It's a game-changer. And actually, an even funnier story is this. I bought this 20-foot pumpkin. Have you seen it on my Instagram?

GIBSON JOHNS: I've seen the pumpkins.


DORINDA MEDLEY: The pumpkin's become very famous. And I came home the other day, and the pumpkin was gone. So I thought, oh, my God. So I literally went back to my cameras. And I saw that no one did steal the great pumpkin patch pumpkin. But actually, on the Ring camera, I saw it blow away down the field.


DORINDA MEDLEY: I was literally ready to call 911. But because my Ring camera they showed up on my Echo Show 15 and on my TV, I could review it and say, oh, thank, God, no one stole it. It actually is just now in the Whalens' backyard, because I kind of saw where it blew.

GIBSON JOHNS: So we know where it went. It didn't just fly away.

DORINDA MEDLEY: We've recovered the pumpkin, thank you to the Ring camera.

GIBSON JOHNS: Thank God. Oh, my gosh.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Because my Echo Show 15 who-- we could go back and see the whole thing. And I could do it from my phone, so it's all integrated. My Bluestone Manor that was built in 1904 cannot believe how smart and high-tech she is.

GIBSON JOHNS: It's tricked out. It's tricked out now. It really is. I love it. I love it. And Dorinda, you know--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I was thinking about this now the other day. I said to Len this morning. I said, what's great now, now that they've set up the whole Ring app on my phone, I can watch Bluestone Manor even when I'm not here, which I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I can watch her on the cameras. I can watch her on my Echo Show 15. I can watch her on my phone. I'm going to be able to see everything that's going on while I'm away, how she plays. Isn't that great? And if anybody rings my doorbell, I can actually talk to them and say [AUDIO OUT]

GIBSON JOHNS: It's like it's own TV channel now for you. It's like a personal TV.



DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, what's great now if people come up to the door, it actually is really good. I can kind of talk to them and say-- I don't need to tell them I'm not home, but it's going to be as if I'm home, right?

GIBSON JOHNS: Mm, totally, yeah.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Which I really love.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, that's--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I didn't have that before.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, that's pretty cool. And you know, we talked about people coming up because it's sort of the Disneyland of Housewives now because it's been a part of so many memorable moments.


GIBSON JOHNS: Epic moments, both-- around several different holidays, I would say. And I think-- I think I said this to you last time we talked. But like one of my favorite moments is when, around Halloween, Ramona gets out of the car.

She sees this sort of crying zombie woman that you have decorated there. Yeah, exactly like-- with her hand on her face. And she goes, oh, my God, it looks like Bethany crying! But she's not out this year, is she?

DORINDA MEDLEY: No, she's not out this year. I've given her a break. I try to every year sort of create a new thing. My theme this year is sort of woodland figures, sort of an ode to everything we went through through the pandemic and sort of relating back to nature. I really kind of-- I think-- for me anyway, I think one of the takeaways from going through the pandemic and being at Bluestone Manor the whole time, which was such a beautiful gift, is that nature-- I never realized how much-- you know, we as humans we come up, we buy these places.

We think we have ownership, and we know what's going on. But really, nature runs the whole show. And so I kind of wanted this them like, the trees are listening so watch out. So I have all the woodland characters, and not so much scary clowns and--

GIBSON JOHNS: Bethany crying, right.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That is one of the scariest things, isn't it? And then the two little kids huddling in the corner.

GIBSON JOHNS: Oh, yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Now, we didn't do scary so much this year. We did more mystical.

GIBSON JOHNS: Whimsical, mystical, right, I like that.


GIBSON JOHNS: Dorinda, what-- for you-- I mean, I'm sure there are moments that people bring up to you as like their most iconic Berkshires moments from the different shows. But what to you is sort of your most memorable moment on either one of the shows from your house?

DORINDA MEDLEY: You know, I think-- I'm always very excited in the beginning when the girls are coming up.


DORINDA MEDLEY: Right? We always know for the--

GIBSON JOHNS: I feel like for you, it's almost like Christmas morning, them coming up.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Right? And I think when you think about it, too, when you think about it in the scheme of the show, it's sort of our crescendo. It sort of hits right in the middle. So everybody's-- we kind of start in the Hamptons and have Fashion Week.

And then the audience goes on this journey with us, which I always love. And then they look forward to us coming to Bluestone Manor. So it kind of hits this moment where people come into the home, they see Len. Len's become a great character. They see the house.

And the girls kind of, I think, feel comfortable, and the audience feels comfortable with it. And I like it because it's an opportunity to sort of showcase who I am outside of the housewives, like Bluestone Manor and my branding around Bluestone Manor and my love for it and my cooking. So I think my favorite moments are always the dinners.


DORINDA MEDLEY: The famous dining room.

GIBSON JOHNS: The good and the bad, exactly.


DORINDA MEDLEY: We always have some epic things. And then of course, I mean, I definitely love when they first came up, the first season. And you know, obviously, I wasn't fully in the swing of things. And I had done so much. Because people don't understand the preparation behind having people up.

So I did it all. And literally, by the time I got to, I cooked, I cleaned, I made it nice, if you all can't be nice, you can all go home, that was such a sentiment for so many people that are hostesses, hosts and hostesses, right? That kind of defined that moment where your mother-- I remember my mother would be so angry after Christmas dinner because we'd eat it in like five minutes, and she would kind of cook it for two weeks. And then, you know, she-- and there was kind of that moment. So I think for us as a group that was an epic moment.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah. Oh, completely. And you also, you took that moment and you've made it a signature part of your brand.

DORINDA MEDLEY: For everything-- my book.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, exactly, it's everything for you. And I think that's so intelligent and smart and savvy.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Some people don't get is that, you know, when you're trying to please-- I'm a people-pleaser by nature. Like you know, I think in life, there's givers and there's receivers.


DORINDA MEDLEY: I tend to be the giver to the point where sometimes I get frustrated. So when people don't receive it in the way that maybe I feel fit--



DORINDA MEDLEY: And I think a lot of them feel that way when we're hosting.


DORINDA MEDLEY: But I love hosting the girls, and I look forward to it. And I think, most importantly, I think the audience looks forward to it. It's the mo-- being at Bluestone Manor with the girls is sort of the height of our bonding moment.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, I think so too. It's, you're at a house together, nowhere to go. It's--

DORINDA MEDLEY: And that's why "Ultimate Girls Trip" worked so well. Because you know, first of all, it's on a hill. It's on 18 acres. There was nowhere to go. And we were at the end of the pandemic. So even though there were some things open, it was morning, noon, and night here. So you can only imagine, with eight sort of superstars.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, exactly, big personalities, it's almost too much for the house.

DORINDA MEDLEY: No one was weak in that group.

GIBSON JOHNS: It's a big house, but-- exactly. And something that you said during that-- one of the BravoCon panels-- I think it was the one for "Girls Trip"-- was like, people don't realize also, there was like 100 people there the week before, too, leading-- with the crew and setting up and all that. So you're hosting more than just eight women. You're hosting over 100 people.



DORINDA MEDLEY: I told you, I woke up one morning before the girls arrived, and I woke up, and I heard all this stuff because they start at like 7:00 in the morning. It looked like Coachella. I was like, what is happening, you know?

GIBSON JOHNS: The balloon--

DORINDA MEDLEY: You know, trailers and command stations and drones. That's one thing that was really so impressive is they-- because it was a much bigger production through Peacock, they had these amazing drone stations. And I think that, for the audience, it gave them such a different feel and look of the house that you got--

GIBSON JOHNS: I think so too.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That we hadn't seen before. I mean, I even kind of like was in awe when they were coming out of my driveway. I was like, wow, because you know I only see it "microly," I don't see it "macroly," you know? So I think that was nice for the audience to see that it's not just the dining room or the living room, where, you know, someone's yelling, mention it all. It's actually a big picture thing that we run here.

GIBSON JOHNS: I think it gave us a much better appreciation for like the grounds that the house is on, and by the pool or the field day that you guys had, or the hot air balloon. Like, we had a much-- at least I had a much better appreciation for just how beautiful the whole thing is.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, thanks. Let me ask you a question. Do you think people really-- we addressed it at BravoCon a bit. Do you get the feeling that people think like I'm running a bed and breakfast? I mean, the fact that people are like, I don't like my room, I'm like, well, it's a house. I can't create rooms. Like--

GIBSON JOHNS: You know, I think that there's-- there's kind of an element to that, I think. I think that they-- it's also like not every room is going to be identical, you know? I don't know what the expectation was necessarily.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Because they don't-- I remember I moved into this house in 2005, and I had young children, my two stepchildren. And so the house actually, believe it or not, wasn't made for Bravo.


DORINDA MEDLEY: It was made for a family. And I really love the fact that people kind of almost, you know-- they think there's like a suggestion box or a concierge to help them change rooms. There's no changing rooms.

GIBSON JOHNS: Maybe-- maybe it was the things you put in every room with the rules on it, maybe that gave that vibe, you know? I don't know. But it's your house.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I stand by that still.

GIBSON JOHNS: I think you should.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I feel no remorse for that. And if they come back next year, if we do do Legacy, I'm maybe updating those plaques, after the learning experience of "Ultimate Girls Trip." Not only am I going to have the plaque, I'm going to update that plaque.

GIBSON JOHNS: Update that plaque, no cupcakes in the rooms when they get there. And you know what? We live and we learn, right, Dorinda?


GIBSON JOHNS: Oh, my gosh. All right, so, Dorinda, out we are a little over a week out from BravoCon, which was-- I still kind of feel exhausted from it. Do you-- have you fully recovered, or are you still kind of--

DORINDA MEDLEY: You want to hear the weirdest thing, Gibson? I didn't feel tired from it.


DORINDA MEDLEY: No, I felt-- I've got to tell you, the first day-- so many people have asked me this. I got to be honest, the days were long. I mean, we started hair and makeup a lot of the day 7:00, 8:00 in the morning, because we had panels at like 10:00, and we had to get down to the Javits. And you know, there was a lot of nighttime stuff.

And luckily, I was part of a lot of the big nighttime stuff. But it was so-- it was so overwhelming to see these people come out the way they did. And you could tell that this was something that they really were looking forward to. I mean, people were-- it was as if like it was its own little world for the weekend. Right?

GIBSON JOHNS: Very much so.

DORINDA MEDLEY: And you know, I went in there knowing people spent a lot of money. I know that people were traveling far and wide. But the real, like, being part of it was really over-- I mean, there were people from the Middle East there, China, New Zealand, Australia, France, London. I mean, I met five people from Wales.

GIBSON JOHNS: Incredible.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I lived in London for 10 years and didn't meet five people from Wales. You know, you couldn't-- the first night I went home after the Legends Ball on Friday night, I couldn't sleep because my body was almost humming, from all this energy. I mean, did you feel it?

GIBSON JOHNS: Oh, yeah, completely. I mean, I really felt as though I was around people who-- we all spoke the same language, first of all. And it just-- we're all so passionate about these shows and these people.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It was healing. Like after going through what we did and learning to appreciate what we missed or what we had, this was the ultimate like, OK, we're back.


DORINDA MEDLEY: And these were loyal, incredibly passionate fans. I mean, you would walk out a door, because they had to take us through the back thing, and people would merge towards you. I mean, when did you ever have to have a Housewife in New York, these girls, have security. We actually had security.

GIBSON JOHNS: I mean, Dorinda, what I said was like, you would-- by the screams and the reaction and the amount of selfies, selfie hands out, you would think that it was Lady Gaga or Beyonce.


GIBSON JOHNS: But you are Lady Gaga or Beyonce to these people.

DORINDA MEDLEY: To these people, that's right.

GIBSON JOHNS: And that's amazing.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It's really interesting, Gibson, because you know, as you know, we only film like four months a year, and I really do go back to my old life and back to my family and house and traveling and all my different parts of my life. And I try to be renormalized very quickly. So especially because we've had this long period where we haven't seen each other, you forget how-- how do you say this without sounding conceited? But not just me, but as a group, how much joy, like people really are invested in us.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, yeah.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It's very humbling. I'll be honest with you, it's very humbling. I'm walking through Big Y thinking, you know-- you could go back to being a nobody very quickly. And I love that part of my life. But the first day I was like, whoa, these people really do know us or me or whatever. Right?

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah. And Dorinda, like, I mean, like you said, like you were involved in all three days. You were a part of nighttime, daytime events the whole time. And you're one of the people--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I said yes to everything.

GIBSON JOHNS: That's the way to be.

DORINDA MEDLEY: When I got my schedule, I was like, yes, because I treat it like Disney. I don't go to Disney and complain. I put on the sneakers, the tracksuit, and I throw myself in.


DORINDA MEDLEY: You have to be in for a penny and in for a pound in life.

GIBSON JOHNS: That's what my question is for you, because you're one of the people that just like very overtly is leaning into it, giving the fans what they want. You're providing that experience and that that interaction for a lot of people that--

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, they spend a lot of money and time.

GIBSON JOHNS: Exactly. But I'm wondering if like, through your observation, just as somebody who's on the other side of it than the fans, were there-- you don't have to name names. Were there-- are people that don't really feel that same way?

DORINDA MEDLEY: Yeah, I think they are-- you know, and I-- you know, for me it's a multi-thing. I signed up for it. It's a job. I put my name on the contract. I'm being paid for it. I know that these people have spent a huge amount of money and time.

And I know that without them-- this is where sometimes I get a little bit like-- without these people, there is no me. There is no Bravo. So how can you not lean into it? And yeah, I just think some people kind of-- but I don't know if that's BravoCon or if that's their nature, period.


DORINDA MEDLEY: You know what it is? In life, there's glass half full, glass half empty. I hope and I tend to be a more of a glass half full because my mother never allowed me to be anything else. I mean, my mother was like, look at the positive of everything.


DORINDA MEDLEY: And it's the only way to get through. Life is hard enough without bringing it-- trying to add boulders to it, right?

GIBSON JOHNS: I totally agree.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Don't put stones in your shoes, it's hard enough to walk as it is. You know what they say. One pebble in a shoe ruins the walk.

GIBSON JOHNS: I like that phrase. I'm going to write that down. I like that one. And obviously, you're in the Berkshires right now, Bluestone Manor where "Ultimate Girls Trip 2" filmed. And the Amazon devices weren't there at this point. But you know, I think that there was an amazing reaction to that season of "Ultimate Girls Trip, Ex-wives Club."


GIBSON JOHNS: A really amazing, amazing reaction, more so than the first season, I think. And I think there was kind of a clamoring for-- OK, they were amazing at Dorinda's house. And this is not taking anything away from Bluestone Manor, but can Peacock send them somewhere next time, like for another season, the same group? Would you-- do you have any kind of inkling that that could happen?

DORINDA MEDLEY: You know, I don't think-- I mean, I didn't hear anything about that. I think they're kind of like leaning into the "Ulimate Girls Trip 3" now. It's a funny thing. You feel like they're sort of like going along and creating as they go along. And everybody thinks we have some magic crystal ball.


DORINDA MEDLEY: We really don't, you know? I think that they're going to probably take on this episode, the third one, which I think is going to be very hard to follow from Bluestone Manor.

GIBSON JOHNS: Oh, I think so too. I think you guys set the bar really high, in terms of producing moments and really kind of-- I don't know. I mean, maybe it was the group, too, the group that you guys had together. Like there was--

DORINDA MEDLEY: It was a great group.

GIBSON JOHNS: It was special.

DORINDA MEDLEY: The group was a dynamic, strong, you know, just great group. Each one of those women, like, have a strong personality, so you can imagine what it was like being here with all of them for eight days.

GIBSON JOHNS: Mm-hmm. And thinking back to BravoCon and being with those women but also being with everybody else, what were some of the kind of most memorable interactions that you had, kind of just-- because I was backstage for a little bit of that time. Like there was a lot of passing through and golf carts and press room run-ins. Like who did you have run-ins with that were memorable?

DORINDA MEDLEY: There was a couple memorable moments. One was when, at the first day when I came out, I kind of wasn't really prepared. And they didn't really-- I don't think they really understood it, is when they opened the door, and everyone just started rushing, and the hundreds at the doors. And then he dragged me back in and said, no, no, no, you can't go out. We have-- I was like-- like I really realized this was a different thing. Like these people aren't-- they're here to play.


DORINDA MEDLEY: I mean-- and the other beautiful moment was-- and I just strangely got the email about "RHONY." A woman said to me, can you do a video message to my mother who's got cancer and can you say hello to her? And I said sure. So we got her out and we FaceTimed her. She wrote me the most beautiful email saying, my mother is actually terminally ill and this meant-- like it was the happiest I've seen her in months. So thank you so much for doing that message.

And when you hear things like that and you do things like that, you don't realize that you're actually doing something really impactful. Because for you, it's just like, oh, hey, so-and-so, you know, that kind of thing. And I just was-- you know, now that being away from it, getting that email this morning, I'm like, it is important. People can say what they want about us. People can like us. People can hate us. We're impactful.

GIBSON JOHNS: You're impactful. And I think that-- I mean, that's a really special story, Dorinda. And--


GIBSON JOHNS: And I think that-- honestly, it's hard to put into words, I think, for people that aren't part of this community of stars and media and fans and journalists and producers and people behind the scenes. Like we have invested, everyone's invested so much time into this whole thing. And we know each other's lives so well that it's-- it's hard to--

DORINDA MEDLEY: It's a love affair.

GIBSON JOHNS: It's hard to characterize that relationship, I think.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It's all a love affair.


DORINDA MEDLEY: It's a love affair, you know?

GIBSON JOHNS: It really is.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I always say it's very similar to what they had for years with soap operas.

GIBSON JOHNS: I totally agree with that. It's like we've been through the ups and the downs and the highs and the lows.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Yes, weddings, divorces, murders, I mean, mug shots-- we don't have murder, thank God. But--

GIBSON JOHNS: We do have mug shots. We do have mug shots. Oh, my God.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Mug shots, thank God I haven't "partooken" to that one yet. Anyway--


GIBSON JOHNS: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So did you see this interview that Ramona did recently? Did you see that, with Carlos King?

DORINDA MEDLEY: No because I've been up here the whole time. I just got here yesterday to set up for all of Halloween. What is she doing now?

GIBSON JOHNS: She's talking about the Legacy show and kind of spilling the tea on her fin-- on those last several seasons of "RHONY."


GIBSON JOHNS: And she-- I don't-- I don't agree with this assessment. But she called it-- she called the Legacy show the loser show.



DORINDA MEDLEY: But I understand that because I thought she wanted to be on it.

GIBSON JOHNS: That's what I thought. I think that she--


GIBSON JOHNS: I think that she see--


GIBSON JOHNS: I think that she sees it as the people-- the people that are sort of left behind, I think, is how she sort of sees it.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, that's not good.

GIBSON JOHNS: I don't see it that way.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I mean, you know what I think? I obviously don't think that. But that's just not smart. That's not a smart business move for her, you know what I mean? She-- we're just at the point where we all should just be quiet and let things roll out. I don't know why she would do that.

GIBSON JOHNS: I mean, she-- I mean, I would want a spot if I were her.

DORINDA MEDLEY: But what's the upside of that? I mean, what's the upside? Because now she might be-- I mean, I don't know. But who know who's going to be asked back. And she goes back on and going-- I mean, that's not going to-- I don't think that's going to go down well with people. I'm going to look that one up.

GIBSON JOHNS: I would agree with that.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I'm going to-- I'm going to look it up when we're done. I'm going to look it up on my Echo Show 15 as soon as I'm done.

GIBSON JOHNS: There we go. Dorinda, what was your-- who is the person that you met during BravoCon, other than like another Bravolebrity, that you were excited to meet that you had the best interaction with that you were like, OK, we're going to be friends or we're-- this was great?

DORINDA MEDLEY: I'll tell you who-- Sheree.

GIBSON JOHNS: Love Sheree.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I really enjoyed Sheree. And it was funny. We met, and it was kind of like that moment, which happens a lot in this Bravo world or Bravo family, where we thought we knew each other. But we really realized our only connection was the fact that we were Bravolebrities. But after five minutes, I felt like-- I was like, I'm going to come to Atlanta and visit you. She goes, I'll come to Bluestone Manor. I'm like, let's do it, you know?

But that's the beauty of the family that, you know, Bravo creates. There is something-- it's a sorority, in a weird way, or a special club that like we do feel very bonded to each other. And I like the fact, too, Gibson, what I like is, you know, it's a time in your Bravo life that you don't-- it doesn't have to be based on controversy or negative or fighting and all that stuff. You just can stay very positive and kind of enjoy the fruits of your labor a little bit.

GIBSON JOHNS: Definitely. And I felt that.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I think that this thing is-- I walked away from it thinking, this thing shoots, they could bring this to London. They could bring this to Australia.

GIBSON JOHNS: It could be a traveling thing.

DORINDA MEDLEY: They could come to Las Vegas.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, totally. And it wouldn't have to be like everybody at once. There can be iterations of this whole thing because there's clearly-- there's clearly, like, just huge interest in it. And you know, and Dorinda--

DORINDA MEDLEY: You know what's interesting to me, which is an observation, I will tell you, that I didn't really expect because I'm such the Bravo world with the Bravo girls. I didn't-- and this isn't a hit, and please don't write it as it.


DORINDA MEDLEY: But like, I didn't really realize how huge like "Summer House" and things were, just because I'm older and I don't watch it. There's no hit there. But like, people are crazy for those people.

GIBSON JOHNS: And I'm one of them. And I that one of the things is I think a lot of-- I think "Summer House," in particular, the pandemic helped-- pandemic viewing and people bingeing shows helped a lot with "Summer House" and took it to the next level. And then I also think, Dorinda, that some of those younger-- those cast of younger people have more men on them, more straight men on them. I think that more male viewers watch those shows with their girlfriends and their wives.



DORINDA MEDLEY: Because I'll be honest with you. I'm not going to say this. But I walked out, and of course, I got my cheers and everything. And then someone from "Summer House," they were going crazy. I was like, wait a second. Who is that young thing getting so much attention over there? And shes this little young thing. I won't say who it was. But people were going crazy over her.

GIBSON JOHNS: Oh, my gosh.


GIBSON JOHNS: Well, Dorinda, I was at the Ask Andy panel when you crashed. And you were--

DORINDA MEDLEY: Oh! Wasn't that great?

GIBSON JOHNS: You got a ton of love. You got a ton of love in that moment. People went wild. My first question about that, did Andy have-- Andy had no idea you were going to crash?

DORINDA MEDLEY: No, I'll tell you the story behind it. So I was walking to my next gig. I think I had a press something. You know, they had those press rooms where you could go in and meet-- and I heard Andy speaking. And I peeked in. I said, oh, my God, Andy's speaking.

And I saw Liz Persky was running the show. So I went and I said, bring me to the front of the line. I'll put my back to the microphone because I knew-- and when they put the spotlight on me, I'll turn around and start talking. He was truly surprised.

GIBSON JOHNS: That's fun.

DORINDA MEDLEY: And don't you like how I introduced myself? Hello, I'm Mrs. Medley from Bluestone Manor.

GIBSON JOHNS: It was so good. And then we got a "make it nice" cheer happening.

DORINDA MEDLEY: And everybody-- everybody joined in.

GIBSON JOHNS: It was really good. It was really good. And I think, it's been talked about, like you asked about when you were being brought off pause. And he hinted that you were going to be soon. I know you don't know too much about Legacy. But one of my things, one of my questions about that, Dorinda, is like, I really like how you have claimed that phrase "on pause," because you kind of got some--


GIBSON JOHNS: Because you kind of got some [BLEEP] for it on "Girls Trip," when I think it was like Tamra was like, that just means fired or whatever. It's the same as the rest of us.


GIBSON JOHNS: But-- or Brandi, yeah. It was a whole thing. But I feel like you've reclaimed it. I saw some fans that had shirts made at BravoCon saying like, Andy put me on pause. It's become another one of your kind of reclaimed moments. And it's kind of cool.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It's taken on a whole-- I mean, whenever I hear it, like literally when people are on pause, my face pops up in their mind. And you know, it's really-- it was the kindest sort of letting go or whatever he had to do, because it was a hopeful goodbye, for a while.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah. Was-- do you feel like--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I'll be honest with you, Gibson. Do you know, first of all, I think it was worked out very well for me, right?


DORINDA MEDLEY: I was able to leave, write my book. It was the pandemic. I was able to take a step back. And you know, the audience was sort of allowed to decide. The audience-- Bravolebrities are fierce, right? They love to hate you and hate to love you. But they miss you when you're gone. You know what I mean?


DORINDA MEDLEY: You see that a lot. So it gave everybody a moment to sort of reevaluate who I was, if they really, on a macro level-- and that's a great thing about Housewives. You have to-- I said it in the interview. You have to invest in the Housewife long term. Sometimes they're good. It's like dating.

You know, when you're first dating, everything's great. The sex is great. The time-- no one can do any wrong. And then you have your first argument. And then you have to kind of make up. But then-- you know? And that's what it's like, your relationship with a Bravolebrity. It's like a long-term dating. So you have to love them for the bigger picture, not for like the Wednesday night argument at--

GIBSON JOHNS: Or like a bad season or like a rougher season they might have had. And I'm wondering for you, Dorinda--

DORINDA MEDLEY: And you need those rougher seasons. Because listen, life--


DORINDA MEDLEY: If people want a housewife to be authentic and real, it's not always great. And I think when people are just sort of too middle-of-the-road, I don't know, do people-- does the audience like that?

GIBSON JOHNS: No, I want the ups and downs. Because that, to me-- we talked about being invested in people. We're invested for the good and the bad. And I think that that's ultimately that's what makes us feel close to you guys. And I'm wondering for you, I think, we talked about the fan relationship to you. But like when you had that on pause moment, and it's sort of like--


GIBSON JOHNS: Do you do feel-- do you feel like that you--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I cried. I cried my eyes out.

GIBSON JOHNS: I'm sure. But do you feel like you've learned anything from that time off, like from a personal level?

DORINDA MEDLEY: I'll tell you what I've learned. I've learned a lot. First of all, I was very lucky because I just signed a deal with Simon and Schuster like a week before I was put on pause to write the book. And I was really in a sort of a quandary figuring out, oh, my God, they paid me, now how am I going to write the book and--

GIBSON JOHNS: And on time, right.

DORINDA MEDLEY: And on time. So it worked out perfectly. It also gave me a chance to sort of step back. I was on for six years. Step back and just-- not just, you know-- and I say this with the kindest thing. But you know, you can get so wrapped up in just the Housewife thing.

And as I always say, you know, by the time I went on Housewives, I was 50. So the cake was baked, you know? It was kind of the frosting. I was giving them the frosting. The cake was baked. Bluestone Manor was mine. My life was mine, Hannah. Richard had passed. I'd had many lives all over the world and many different experiences.

But it allowed me to step back and sort of like reconnect with me again. The pandemic helped a lot with that, and reconnect, well, with this, with brands. Like I think it's important to be bigger than just a Housewife. I love it. But it allowed me to be like, wow, you know, I have a lot of great branding power. I

Have a lot of Dorinda to still give and write a book do. I did this partnership with Amazon last year, you know? And they came back and did it again. And that's what's great about Bravo and being a Housewife. It provides you with an incredible platform, right? But you want to make sure that you keep growing still, right?


DORINDA MEDLEY: And I had a lot of growth. I think all of us did.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, and I think that you've shown that.

DORINDA MEDLEY: If there is an opportunity to go back to Legacy, I have stories to tell again.

GIBSON JOHNS: Totally. And I think that's what also-- because I think sometimes we'll rush back into filming on some of these shows. And like sometimes, the break is actually good because it's giving us more fodder. And it's nice.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Dating, how you feel after the pandemic, branding, beautiful branding opportunities with the company, things like Ring and Amazon and all, and just written a book. There's just a lot of things--

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, there's a lot.

DORINDA MEDLEY: --that we can now talk about. And we're-- and listen, I don't care. If anyone says they have it, they're crazy. We've all become a little different since the pandemic.

GIBSON JOHNS: No, I completely-- if it hasn't changed you, then I'm not sure you're being honest with yourself. Exactly. The other thing that you've obviously been asked a lot about is the new rebooted cast. And you've been nothing but gracious about that. I think that that's-- and that's the only really way to be, I would say, in your position. What did you make, though, of Jill going to lunch with some of them? Did you see that?

DORINDA MEDLEY: Yeah, I don't know about that. It just seemed very Jill.

GIBSON JOHNS: What does that mean? What does that mean?

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, I mean, is that necessary? I just-- I don't know. It felt a little awkward to me. But that's what-- Jill's on all that. I-- I don't know. How did you feel about that?

GIBSON JOHNS: I mean, I saw some jokes being made about it. I thought-- I want to read it as like a really positive thing.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I mean, you kind of opened it up-- I mean, your first reaction was, when you open it up, you're like, ugh. I don't know. It was-- you know what I mean?

GIBSON JOHNS: Totally. I get what you're saying.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It was like, ugh.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah. And going off that, Dorinda, you know, like it was interesting to watch you doing Squash That Beef with Vicki on "Watch What Happens Live" during BravoCon, when you were like, no, we squashed this, we're over it, whatever, and sort of contrasting that with-- you and Jill had a moment on one of the panels. And there's clearly some feelings there and some tensions there. And I'm wondering like, why do you think that that stuff with Jill is sort of still lingering, but it's not with Vicki?

DORINDA MEDLEY: You know, I don't think is-- I-- to be honest with you, Gibson, I thought Jill and I were good after-- during the show. We had a great episode 6 into 7. We were hugging. And I just found it interesting that, after the show was done, I don't know what happened. So I just-- I don't want to touch it because what I thought was fine six months later when the press started, a whole new sort of storyline started, which I never like that. Because I love for the audience to sort of follow the show.

And it conflicted with what was authentically happening at Bluestone Manor. So I was like, huh? To tell you the truth, I was like totally-- someone called me up and told me about it. Because believe it or not, I was up in the Berkshires. I'm like really? Because I had just gotten text messages saying, I love you, I want to be friends. We might go to-- so it was more confusing than anything. And I don't really-- I don't do well with like-- you know, say it to my face.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, for sure.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I'm really-- like I can deal with anything. But you know, I don't like when there's one conversation going on in front of your face and in texts, and then behind the scene there's another conversation. Because that's dangerous to me. Like you know me. I like a good-- I will go if there's anything.

GIBSON JOHNS: You're a very direct person.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I'm very direct. But what I don't do is that thing where it just is all the mixed messaging. Because that's just dangerous to me, even in friendships. Just tell me who you are. And I thought that we had really done a beautiful job-- I felt really good when she left. In fact, we were making plans. So--

GIBSON JOHNS: I mean, that last episode was pretty great.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I don't know why--

GIBSON JOHNS: I cried during that last episode when the choir came in.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Right? What do you think it is, Gibson? Is it-- do you think--

GIBSON JOHNS: I mean, I think I kind of-- my read on it maybe is that there's sort of an anticipation for the lead up to what Legacy could be. And--

DORINDA MEDLEY: It doesn't work like that.

GIBSON JOHNS: I know it doesn't. But I think that that's-- Jill hasn't been on a Real Housewives-- hasn't been on "Real Housewives in New York" in a very long time. And I think that the show has changed a lot. So I think that there's sort of an effort to, oh, there's an interest in Dorinda versus Jill, let's bring that into Legacy and sort of-- you know what I mean? I don't know if that makes sense. But who knows.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, I just believe in letting things play. I just don't-- I don't have anything-- to tell you truth, Jill and I, I thought we were in a great place. And I don't-- I can't think-- to tell you the truth, after she left the house all I got were texts that were nice and kind and maybe I'll come up, you know?

So I was blindsided. The thing about Vicki and mine was we put it out there. We dealt with it. It was what it was so we could deal with it in an authentic way, not in sort of a backdoor thief in the dark kind of way.

GIBSON JOHNS: Definitely, yeah.

DORINDA MEDLEY: She'll do well.


DORINDA MEDLEY: That, like I said, is dangerous.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah. When your co-star is like Jill or Ramona with her with Carlos King last week or Ebony responding to that, when people who you, like, been on the same shows as and things like that, when they do interviews like that, do people send those to you? How do you kind of discover those? Or do you see on Instagram? Like how do you discover and react to those?

DORINDA MEDLEY: Well, I usually get sent it. Someone will say, hey, did you did you see this? And then I see it. And in fact, I hadn't even saw it the day that we-- oh, the day that we did the interviews to us, I hadn't seen it yet. Because-- you know, I'll be honest with you. I try not to get to engaged in all that. Because it just kind of-- it can hurt your feelings.


DORINDA MEDLEY: And you know, I just-- people say stuff in the moment when they're in interviews that maybe are salacious, and they don't mean it. So I try to keep my relationships with the girls that I feel close to, I try to focus on that. But you know--

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, I get that.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That's why I really don't do a lot of podcasts and things. Even after they put me on pause, I literally did like no interviews. Because I was like, it's going to be-- I'm going to say something wrong, and then I'm going to-- you know, there's something-- silence is golden.

GIBSON JOHNS: And also, there's always going to be something else.

DORINDA MEDLEY: You only get yourself in trouble. You only get yourself in trouble. You know the old thing-- say it, forget it. You know?

GIBSON JOHNS: Say it, forget it. Write it, regret it.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Write it, regret it.

GIBSON JOHNS: One of your most iconic lines.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Even when Jill said in one of her interviews, I will never stay at Bluestone Manor again, it's written. So now, like no matter what, she'll never be at Bluestone Manor again. Why say it? We had a beautiful time. We had a beautiful story for the audience. And now here we go with statements. Just don't say it. Let things play out.

GIBSON JOHNS: Also, like if you both end up on Legacy--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I don't feel anything towards Jill because I haven't really spoken to her. She's kind of on her own sort of PR thing. And I think that's a very important thing for her, is just trying to get back into it. I feel like I'm sort of--

GIBSON JOHNS: You're still in it.

DORINDA MEDLEY: You know, I'm here. I don't really need to go and badmouth anyone. That's really not my gig anyway. You know, I kind of-- when I'm on the show, I do what we got to do, and in auth-- I think honest. It may be painful sometimes. But I'm very honest. I put it out there. But I don't six months later just kind of start making up stuff and throwing it out there to see who catches it. You know what I mean?

GIBSON JOHNS: Right, right, no.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Because you can't-- you can't-- there's no way to prove-- like what am I going to start saying, no, I did, yes I did, but there's nothing-- like bring it on camera.



GIBSON JOHNS: Totally, I'm with you. And before--

DORINDA MEDLEY: I don't know how people like to deal with me. I think it's easier to do stuff behind my back in front of me because you know how that goes.

GIBSON JOHNS: Becuase they're scared of the heat. They're scared of-- they're scared of you calling them out, which is, I think-- you know?

DORINDA MEDLEY: I am very good verbally.

GIBSON JOHNS: You check people. You check people. That's a-- don't let it slide, you know? And I think that's a good way to be.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Tell the truth. Tell the truth. Show the proof, and we can file it.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah. Dorinda, before we go, you were on that amazing "Girls Trip" panel with Dave Quinn on Sunday at BravoCon. And they brought out the cast of season 3, which was really cool to see kind of like-- I mean, like what was it, like 12 or 15 of you on on stage together? Did you-- like did you-- what did you make of the kind of dynamic of the third season cast? Did you observe anything from those kind of 15 minutes, or the trailer even? Because Leah is in there.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Yeah, yeah. I don't-- you know, it's so different than the Bluestone Manor one. It's just-- I think it's interesting that they went to Thailand and stuff. But we didn't get enough of it. Did you get-- did you get enough of it to really get your hands around it?

GIBSON JOHNS: It seemed like a very entertaining season, but I'm not really sure exactly how it's going to compare?

DORINDA MEDLEY: I just like the fact that they're-- you know, I think it's so-- I was just talking about this to someone this morning. I just love the fact that they can take-- it's such an interesting concept to take all these franchises, right, and we're all separate, and then to cross-pollinate them. Because there is something there about seeing, you know, Marisol and Leah, or like Candace.


DORINDA MEDLEY: Like you're like, huh? You know, we're almost like cartoon characters. So when you-- it is a wild thing, right?

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, I think it's really wild. And my favorite part about the whole "Ultimate Girls Trip" experiment, I'll say is, like the the way that you guys can talk about the shows and the different roles that you play on your respective franchises, and how that differs from the role you play in this new setting.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That's the tricky part.


DORINDA MEDLEY: Because each franchise has such distinct personalities and even ways of doing the show. Like you know New, York is sort of, I think, one of the ones that is very just like, leave us alone, we're [BLEEP] filming. Like don't guide us. Don't point to us. Don't acknowledge us.

Just throw on the mic, throw on the cameras, and let the games begin. And we've done-- I mean, we've had many nights where like they literally have to stop us. And we're like, you're-- they're like, we need to take your mics off now. Because we're just living life. Look good for your daughter, you know?

GIBSON JOHNS: Like that night at Bluestone Manor when it literally is like footage from Bethany's phone one night, like the pool tables.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Yeah. And I always said-- I mean, I always said what people don't understand the reason why we look so ragged in the morning is because when the cameras go off, we keep going. Like that's not for the camera. We keep going.

GIBSON JOHNS: Relatable. Relatable.


I love it. Oh, my God.

DORINDA MEDLEY: There's nights where I remember-- I won't say who in particular. We'll be doing a dinner and the person will say, can we still order drinks after we stop filming? Are they still free? So we're like-- they're like, no, once the mics are off. We're like, OK, 10 more, come on.

Because we'll definitely stay. We stay. And that's when all the good stuff comes out. And that's when the bonding comes out. I think the great thing about the New York cast, and I hope it for the new cast, is we really did felt-- we felt bonded together.

GIBSON JOHNS: I agree. I think that that-- and I think that that-- I think you made this point earlier, Dorinda, which was like, the-- I don't like when there's a lot of high turnover on a show because you have to let people settle in with each other and create those actual relationships and dynamics. And that's what you guys have on-- or had on New York. And I'm excited to hopefully have that back on our screens.

DORINDA MEDLEY: And I'm excited with this reboot, with the reboot and stuff. This isn't easy. They're coming up after women that are kind of iconic, right?


DORINDA MEDLEY: These are-- like I said, they're almost like cartoon characters. Like you could put Sonja as a cartoon, you'd know who it is. Lu, me, like you know? It's really ingrained in fan's things.

But I am really interested in seeing that beautiful panel that night. Like it's exactly, as I said, like I want to learn about these girls? Like who is that woman in New York City? Aren't you-- I mean, I really am.

GIBSON JOHNS: Oh, no, I mean, listen,. if they all live in New York, they're going to be dynamic personalities.

DORINDA MEDLEY: I observe them all the time on the Upper East Side. Like I-- because I realize now I'm old. And I'll see them in the elevator, you know, and I think, you're such a different young mother than I was.

GIBSON JOHNS: What's her life like, right.


GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, totally.

DORINDA MEDLEY: With technology-- like even, honestly-- and I'm not bringing it back because I'm doing it. But even with these things, like the Echo Show 15, with the Ring, with being able to access their calendars, like think about if I was a mother, I had that black daily book.

GIBSON JOHNS: My mom has one of those as well. Yeah, exactly.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Like, I would lose that and lose my [BLEEP] Where's that thing! Because it was my-- because it was my life, kind of. Now, you can do it on all these smart devices.


DORINDA MEDLEY: I can keep my calendar for Hannah on the Echo Show 15. I can look up recipes. I can look up the things I have to do for her school projects. Technology is now such a huge part of, and these smart devices, of not only these young girls' lives but their kids' lives.


DORINDA MEDLEY: You think Hannah had a tablet--



DORINDA MEDLEY: --or a cell phone? And I raised Hannah in London until she was like eight, so we were really behind the eight ball.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, I mean, it's like you'll see these younger families out to dinner, and the kid is just, iPad, headphones on.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That's it. Virtual doctors, virtual everything.

GIBSON JOHNS: Yeah, totally. And--

DORINDA MEDLEY: So I think that's going to be really interesting to watch that success. And women, I have to say it, it is all about the woman right now. She is strong. She is successful. She is confident. And she has financial power. So you know, I look to my daughter, and I think, wow, what a wonderful time to be a woman in this world.

GIBSON JOHNS: Mm, that's a lovely note to end on, Dorinda.

DORINDA MEDLEY: OK, great. Listen, I just thought-- I love the fact that I've had this partnership with Ring and the Echo Show 15 because it is so important to have smart devices in your house for so many reasons. It helps to organize my Halloween decorations. It helps me get recipes. It's great to see who's at my front door.

And I love the fact that they can customize the ringtones and that I can see it throughout my whole house. I can see it on my Ring Fire Stick. I can see it on my Echo Show 15. I can see who's at my front door. I can pull up recipes, put on music. It just-- these smart devices make our lives so much easier. And I'm so happy to be part of this partnership.

GIBSON JOHNS: And you know what? It helps you make it nice. It helps you make it even nicer.

DORINDA MEDLEY: It does, even nicer. The Ring and Echo Show 15 help to make me nice-- make it nicer.

GIBSON JOHNS: Exactly, exactly.

DORINDA MEDLEY: That was beautiful. I appreciate that.

GIBSON JOHNS: Thank you so much for the time. And I always love seeing your face. And I'm-- I can't wait til next time. I can't wait till next time.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Until next time. Bye-bye.

GIBSON JOHNS: All right, thank you.

DORINDA MEDLEY: Oh, I forgot, I looked up-- I looked--


GIBSON JOHNS: Thanks for tuning in to "We Should Talk." I hope you enjoyed the interview. You can find out more about In The Know at intheknow.com. Follow me, Gibson Johns, @Gibsonoma on Twitter and Instagram. And you can listen to all of our interviews, past and future, by searching We Should Talk wherever you get your podcasts. Hope to see you next time.