‘Queer as Folk’ Folks: Four Creators on 23 Years of Three Groundbreaking Shows
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When Russell T Davies’ Queer as Folk arrived in the U.K. in 1999, the series marked a turning point for the depiction of gay life on TV as the drama about a group of friends became the first to focus exclusively on the LGBTQ community.
Two years later, Showtime followed in the U.S. when Ron Cowen and Daniel Lipman (the now-married writers of the 1985 AIDS drama An Early Frost) adapted Davies’ beloved series. Outliving the British original (1999-2000), it ran for five seasons, from 2000 to 2005.
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Now, nearly a quarter of a century after both, Peacock will break new ground June 9 with its take on Davies’ iconic series. From creator Stephen Dunn (Closet Monster), the new incarnation is an updated-for-2022 reimagining of Davies’ original. The new show (with Davies as an exec producer) is the most diverse of all three and features innovative storylines for transgender and disabled characters.
Taken together, the iterations represent a time capsule of where LGBTQ culture was at the time of their airings, and the way in which stories about the community have evolved on the small screen. While the Showtime series came out during “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” the Peacock version arrives as “Don’t Say Gay” bills pop up across the U.S.
Via a Zoom call with THR, the creators of all three shows talk about authentic casting (including Davies’ decision to hire out gay actors for his 2021 series It’s a Sin) and discuss how much has changed in the intervening years, yet how things sadly remain the same.
Have you all seen each other’s shows?
RON COWEN We’ve seen both Russell’s and Stephen’s.
DANIEL LIPMAN Stephen, in the great tradition of Queer as Folk, yours is very brave and very bold; it really followed the tradition of all the previous series.
STEPHEN DUNN Thank you, that means a lot. I saw the Showtime series first when I was too young, probably, to be watching it, on Showcase in Canada because I’m Canadian. And then I rented the British version on DVD when I was in high school.
RUSSELL T DAVIES I’ve still got all of Ron and Dan’s on VHS. I haven’t got a VHS player anymore, but I will never chuck them out. Stephen, I’m afraid I’ve only seen three episodes of yours. It’s so 2022, and that’s what I love about it.
What do you think of the evolution that Queer as Folk has had during the past 20-plus years?
DAVIES As a title, Queer as Folk is not remotely safe. The word “queer” all those years ago was death. Even some people today don’t like the word. I love the fact that there’s a great big queer franchise that has existed now for [nearly] 25 years. It is not and has never been safe. These lovely men I’m looking at here, these torch-bearers who have done work beyond my imagining, are never taking safe options.
COWEN Each show represents what was going on in the world at the time we were writing it. It’s almost a quarter-century of observing gay life from three different perspectives. I can’t think of anything else in TV that’s done that.
DAVIES What I love about this is that we’re short of our own myths and stories. No one ever blinks when there’s a new version of Hamlet or Little Mermaid. We’re thousands of years behind.
COWEN It’s a historical document that exists and that hopefully will always exist because Russell’s was toward the end of the 20th century. We’re at the turn of the century, and Stephen’s is the 21st century. That’s a phenomenal history.
LIPMAN In 20 years, there might be a fourth Queer as Folk. The culture when we started our show was so different than it is today. Even in terms of acceptance, I remember Showtime was saying, “People have never seen this before.” Hopefully the majority of people have grown to accept the gay community. When we did Queer as Folk, I don’t think people were trans-aware at all.
DAVIES The story of these three Queer as Folks is the increasing diversity. Everyone thinks we’re in some sort of gay golden age now, and it’s not at all.
Right, there’s legislation like Florida’s “Don’t Say Gay” law …
DAVIES Exactly. That’s across America. It will come here [to the U.K.] next. We’ve got anti-trans government in power here. [The show is] well done, Stephen. You’ve just hit the right time for us to start shouting and protesting and fighting, yet again.
COWEN We have the Supreme Court here, and after the abortion ruling came down, Biden said, “They’ll be coming after gay marriage next.” It feels like we’re right back to where we started.
DUNN When I was younger, the phrase “It gets better” was always a promise. I think that was to get us through this. It does feel like Queer as Folk has existed in response to the political climate. It reemerges when we need it the most. It re-emerges when we need it the most. I did not expect the show to come out — especially with the subject matter that we are dealing with over the course of the season — to be as relevant now as it was when we originally started working on it five years ago.
DAVIES We’re always a flash point for the right wing. And that literally has not changed over 25 years. I’ve never joined in any of those “It gets better” campaigns, because I don’t think it does.
DUNN I think 21 percent of Gen Z adults identify as LGBTQ+ right now. I didn’t go to high school with a single queer person that was out at the time, and now it’s a completely different generation, but we’re still facing similar persecution. It’s baffling.
Jeff Spicer/Getty Images;Jesse Grant/WireImage (2);Jon Kopaloff/Getty Images
Russell, your Queer as Folk was the first show with an entire LGBTQ cast of characters. What made that possible?
DAVIES There was a rising feeling of acceptance. I was very lucky there was a channel, Channel 4 — which is now being sold off by our Tory government because it’s too independent, radical and diverse — whose entire existence was the promotion of radical and diverse voices. It was still a big risk. There were so many people in the industry that kept laughing at what we do: “How is your gay drama?” There was a lot of snickering, like the show was going to be soft, gentle, kissy-kissy and kind — just pandering to a big, safe audience, which Queer as Folk absolutely is not. That was largely the mainstream industry reaction to it before it went on air.
When the Showtime series launched, it was the first time U.S. audiences had seen a show that was entirely about LGBTQ stories. Russell paved the way, but did you face challenges?
LIPMAN HBO originally wanted to do Queer as Folk, but as a movie. And Showtime really wanted the show and gave us 22 episodes our first season. Ron and I knew we had to be bold and brave. Because even in our writers room, we had very timid writers and had to push them. Agents would not send us actors. People were very afraid of the show.
COWEN The first time we heard about Queer as Folk was in the Calendar section of the L.A. Times. The whole article was about [how] no one will ever have the guts to do a show like this in the U.S. People thought it was going to be a much softer show than Russell’s, and we knew it had to be outrageous and more sexual. The sex on our show probably was the most political statement we made. Because we all grew up seeing gay people represented on TV — if they were ever represented — [as] eunuchs or clowns. We never saw gay people having a sex life or being complete people. We had a list of subjects that we were determined to write about because we grew up at a very inhospitable time in the U.S. Not just the Defense of Marriage Act and Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, but we didn’t have gay marriage here until 10 years after the show ended.
LIPMAN George W. Bush, during our fourth or fifth season, had a conference in the Rose Garden where he said he wanted to amend the Constitution where marriage is just between a man and a woman. We wanted our Queer as Folk to be a celebration of being. We saw movies and TV shows where gay people would hang themselves; they’d walk into the ocean to drown. We didn’t want any of that. We used the sex on the show to be joyous, angry, vindictive, self-destructive …
COWEN … and celebratory. There were so many topics that we needed to address because it was such a politically oppressive, scary time. Starting with Matthew Shepard. We came out of that period. I remember cutting his picture out of the L.A. Times and putting it in my wallet and had it there for years. So, when [actor] Randy Harrison came in, we could have a different reality where [his character, Justin] wouldn’t die after his bashing.
DUNN That also was the only representation that I saw: It was suicide or it was Disney villains. That was queer representation for me, and so seeing this show that was just so irreverent, so joyful, so sexual, so free, and it still dealt with the realities of being queer. When we went into our new journey on Queer as Folk, I also went in with a list of stories that we need to hear and tell right now. They’re urgent because I think that’s in the DNA of the series itself.
What topics were on your list?
DUNN It’s a long list and it’s still, after eight episodes, continuing. A huge part of the show is racial diversity. It was important to include the disabled community, and we have two disabled leads among our cast to flesh out a story that is not trying to represent all queer disabled people, but the introduction of a community that’s often left out. And I don’t just mean in television, but literally in bars and Pride events. Also, the visibility of the trans community and telling trans stories.
LIPMAN With Transparent, people began to become acquainted with the trans community. When we were doing our show and when Russell was doing his …
COWEN … there was not much awareness like there is now, nor diversity. It was next to impossible to cast it. Not one talent agency in Hollywood would allow their clients to audition. And that included our agency at the time. I was asking trainers at our gym, “Can you act?” Neither Gale Harold [who played Brian] nor Randy Harrison had ever been in front of the camera before.
SHOWTIME / Courtesy: Everett Collection
Russell, was your casting experience similar to Ron and Dan’s? You’ve said more recently that you only want to cast gay actors in gay roles going forward.
DAVIES The marvelous straight actors who we cast [including Aidan Gillen and Charlie Hunnam] were the foot soldiers and generals that led me to the luxury of being in this position. In 1998 if you would ask agents for a gay actor, there was no such thing. Lots of people we knew were gay, but a lot of actors ran away from it because they couldn’t have faced the press launch where they would’ve been interrogated about it. There were some gay actors in it — Antony Cotton (Alexander) has been on Coronation Street ever since, and he’s possibly the most famous gay man in Britain now. Now, I don’t just cast gay actors — I cast out gay actors. There’s a great bed of actors now who are out of the closet, which is such a brave new world to me now. It’s a Sin genuinely had a great big queer energy that rattled off the screen. I love the fact that it pisses people off. All those straight people who sit there go, “Oh, I’m perfectly happy with homosexuality, but don’t you dare not cast me.” I know I’ve upset some people I’ve cast in the past who do not appreciate the decision.
LIPMAN We had some straight actors in our lead cast and when the show was on the air, they would not reveal their sexuality. They wanted people to concentrate on the character. I remember in casting the show, actors would come in and drop a little hint, “My wife is waiting for me,” just to make sure that we knew they were not gay.
COWEN [The] straight actors we cast were very political, and they still are. They’re the ones who took a chance with the future of their careers and put their asses on the line to do these roles.
DUNN We did cast queer people in queer roles on our show, but it wasn’t my mission. It was easy because we’re in a different time where there is a buffet of incredible queer talent who are out. I don’t think anyone is arguing that having straight actors play queer characters in the past was a mistake because it’s a different time. In my movie, Closet Monster, our lead actor Connor Jessup, wasn’t out when I made the film but then came out a few years later. We can’t demand actors to come out. It’s an industry that still has a lot of homophobia despite Hollywood being the f—ing gayest place on earth. There is still a struggle. There are a lot of queer actors who we know are secretly closeted. I can name a bunch — I’m not going to — but it still exists that there is career pressure on stars to make their sexual identity ambiguous. I think Russell’s approach to casting It’s a Sin was necessary because it laid some groundwork for the reality that there are amazing actors available right now. There are roles now, there are careers to be had. I used to get the question “Are you sure you want to make another gay film after making Closet Monster? Do you want to be labeled a queer director?” I am a queer director and I think I can make a career out of it. There’s still a lot of frontiers that we haven’t reached.
DAVIES When I make these statements, I’m not expecting everyone to change their policies overnight. There might be 300 programs casting tomorrow that will pay me no attention. That’s why you have to go to the extreme in order to balance that seesaw, or everyone stays in the middle.
DUNN There is a difference with casting gay and lesbian actors in those roles and a non-trans actor in a trans role. That is not an option, and we’ve seen it happen in Hollywood and it’s been rewarded. While it’s important to have those stories told, and sometimes it does require star power to make any project in Hollywood, it’s more important for us now to have trans stars than it is for us to have a cis actor playing a trans role in order to get that trans story across the finish line.
The gay community criticized the first Queer as Folk because it didn’t portray HIV/AIDS, though that is the central focus of It’s a Sin. Russell, was there a reason you didn’t include that?
DAVIES There was a powerful reason not to do it. Our evening soap operas had tons of gay characters, and the only stories that were being told were HIV stories again and again — and that’s all we saw. Queer as Folk was a massively deliberate and provocative statement to deny that. To say, “We have other lives.” Actually, HIV/AIDS is mentioned subtly in every single episode. I’m not daft, I know this audience and knew there’d be a storm, and I stood up to that storm because it was absolutely the right decision to make at the time: that HIV/AIDS did not define us. I loved the Uncle Vic character [in the American version] who had given away all his money [after he tested positive] and then lived. I knew there were stories there to be told.
LIPMAN When we did An Early Frost, AIDS was a death sentence. But hope came with cocktails and medication. With Queer as Folk, we were able to do that with Uncle Vic.
DUNN I am inspired by the ways in which both versions handled HIV storylines because, like Russell pointed out, the change in focus of HIV stories in that show was incredibly necessary. I was 9 or 10 when the show came out and those storylines were everywhere in my school at that age. What you did on Showtime began to shift the narrative and show people living with HIV. It was incredibly important. I’ve seen a lot of coming out stories of having HIV. But I’ve never seen one the way that happens in our show in a scene with Fin Argus [Mingus] and Juliette Lewis [who plays Mingus’ mother, Judy].
COWEN Because Debbie [Sharon Gless] did not have the same reaction on our show when her son was dating a man with HIV. The way Judy responds to her son is quite different.
LIPMAN That scene was so surprising. The same thing happened with us when Debbie was so supportive of her gay son and when she found out that he had a boyfriend who was HIV positive, her reaction was, “No, forget it.” We got so much flak from that: “How could she react that way?” But it was honest. And I think the same is true with your storyline.
COWEN People were picketing in front of a place where we went to speak. Because they thought all of a sudden we had betrayed the community.
DUNN We talk about what it’s like to live with HIV now. Most HIV storylines that we’ve seen have been period pieces like It’s a Sin and Pose. But there hasn’t been enough showing of what it is to live and be undetectable and untransmissable in 2022. So, one of our leads becomes positive over the course of the season, but it’s not a death sentence. And I think people are going to have a surprising reaction to it. But that scene between Argus and Lewis is the heartbeat of our show and what this version of this show is.
Courtesy of Alberto Rodriguez/Peacock
Stephen, the way in which you tell the story of your trans character, Ruthie, isn’t something viewers will have seen before in that Jesse James Keitel also plays her character pre-transition. Was the motivation there to also be groundbreaking in the way your predecessors were?
DUNN Absolutely. The idea for the story came from Jaclyn Moore, one of my writers, who created a beautiful story that’s based on her personal experiences. And it’s the origin story of Ruthie. The episode goes back to high school to see Brodie (Devin Way) and Ruthie as teenagers. Jesse James Keitel very bravely de-transitions, which was a difficult process emotionally. She’s referred to by her dead name, which we bleep for the audience. It’s censored out, it’s like a swear word. It’s our telling of Brodie and Ruthie’s friendship. But ultimately, it’s Ruthie coming into her own, finding her name, finding her identity. We share the same title, but we owe such a debt to the bravery of what you all did in the late ’90 and early 2000s because I wouldn’t be here or be the same person without these shows. And so many other people wouldn’t, either.
LIPMAN One of the hallmarks of Queer as Folk, the franchise, is truth. When we did our version, a lot of gay people did not like us telling the truth.
When you sold your shows, were there openly gay development execs that you worked with?
DAVIES I’ve never thought about that before. They were all straight. They loved the material. And what are we without our allies? They had channel controllers above them — straight men — who did prefer other dramas that they had made. We ended up getting to No. 1 on the VHS charts, beating Disney’s Antz.
LIPMAN At the time, Showtime had some degree of success with an all-African American show based on the film Soul Food and had Resurrection Blvd., which was a Latino show. They were called “niche” series. Showtime thought Queer as Folk would be a niche show for the gay audience. They had no idea that it would explode — and neither did we.
DUNN We would not be here without Alex Sepiol, who is our main executive at Peacock and a queer man. Having a queer person on the network side … we had very little pushback. The show itself is very queer and a lot of that had to do with Alex understanding and being able to advocate within what I assume is a very straight environment.
Is that the reason your show went to Peacock instead of Showtime, which also recently revived The L Word for a new generation?
DUNN Absolutely. Showtime was one of the buyers in our original deal. But, as Russell can attest, it wasn’t as good a fit as Peacock. Subconsciously, Alex was one of the most important factors.
The Peacock incarnation is built around a shooting at a gay bar, similar to the 2016 mass shooting at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando that killed 49 people. The Showtime edition featured its central club being bombed in the final season. What does it mean to you to address attacks like these?
DUNN Before the Pulse nightclub shooting, New Orleans was the location of the other largest mass murder in the U.S. [at a gay club], at the UpStairs Lounge in 1973, though we don’t mention it directly. One of the reasons we chose New Orleans is because it’s a city that has survived so much and maintains a distinct voice with its strong queer community and pool of queer artists and drag queens.
DAVIES That was one of the things that got the show made.
DUNN Our show is about a community rebuilding after the shooting, but we don’t ever show the shooting. Just as you, Russell, don’t show the HIV crisis but it informs the DNA of the story that we’re telling. These characters are who they are because of this specific event. The inclusion of that storyline is to bring attention to the community that has to rebuild in a way that is bigger, better, safer and more inclusive than the space that was before it.
LIPMAN We did the same thing; we ended our series with the bombing of Babylon. This was before Pulse, and people said it was over the top.
COWEN They didn’t say it was over the top after Pulse. Brian bought Babylon and reopened it. And the point was that you’re not going to get rid of us. We had to make that statement of hope and positivity.
DUNN These are the realities of being a queer person. You can’t shy away from those points in telling these kinds of stories. We’ve made a lot of progress, but there are still a lot of battles to fight.
DAVIES Absolutely. To be a queer person is a political act.
LIPMAN That’s true. Anything our characters did became political because they were gay. People hadn’t seen that before.
DUNN We are living in a time where there are still atrocities that exist toward our community. But our community has united and gotten much stronger, more visible, loud and empowered and are listened to. Yes, we have fucking McDonald’s sponsoring our Pride events — we love your money, please continue to give it to us — but corporations are starting to listen to us. Disney did not respond quickly, but they did end up responding to Don’t Say Gay. These things were not happening at that level even 20 years ago. The pendulum keeps swinging and it always has. And that’s our motivation to continue to fight.
Interview edited for length and clarity.
A version of this story first appeared in the June 8 issue of The Hollywood Reporter magazine. Click here to subscribe.
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