Patrick Wilson Says Goodbye to ‘Insidious’ From the Director’s Chair

The horror genre — like any other — has its stock characters: the creepy child, the father-on-the-edge, the wise mystic. When done poorly, these archetypes are basically a vehicle for forgettable scream-in-the-dark fun. When done well, they’re flesh-and-blood people you worry about from film to film, hoping that someday their suffering will end — well, at least after a few movies.

The Insidious series — created by Leigh Whannell and James Wan — is the latter. Centered largely around the Lambert family, the films tell the tale of a father and son with a talent for astral projecting that lands them in a netherworld called the Further, bursting with spirits looking for a way back into the real world. The first movie, which came out in 2010, follows Dalton Lambert (Ty Simpkins) as he finds his way to the Further; the second, which dropped in 2013, toggles between past and present, where Dalton’s father, Josh (Patrick Wilson), begins recalling the ghosts that haunted him as a child, leading him to be possessed by them in the present. Ten years later, the Lambert family is back in The Red Door, the fifth movie in the series, and, likely, Dalton and Josh’s last foray into hell.

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That film, which opened last Friday with a bang at the box office, sees the Lambert family splintered. At the end of the last film, Josh and his son underwent hypnosis to quash their memories of the Further, which led to Josh’s memory becoming fuzzy and he and his wife, played by Rose Byrne, to divorce. Dalton, who resents his father for pulling away, is on his way to art school — after a painful drive to campus with Josh — where his memories begin to resurface as he pours himself into his work. The film, which was directed by Wilson (his directorial debut), marks a tonal shift in the Insidious universe. Yes, the movies have always dealt with generational suffering, but this time, we’re looking into the trauma that demons both literal and figurative have left behind.

We spoke with Wilson about his decision to direct, going back to the Further, and what really scares him.

When did you decide you wanted to direct?
I had been wanting to direct for a while now. Probably close to ten years, realistically. I went to Carnegie Mellon for theater and I try to go back every couple of years to give masterclasses, whether it’s in film or musical theater. I’ve always had a real passion for working with actors, specifically younger actors. My wife [actress Dagmara Dominczyk] and I would direct the school plays for the kids in elementary school.

I was just trying to find the right story that I was passionate about. And then this opportunity came my way in June of 2019. First, it sort of scared me — not like a horror movie scares you. It was just a little daunting because I didn’t know if I wanted my first [film] to be horror. Do I want to fill James Wan’s shoes? Can I do that? But after about 24 hours, I thought, “What an incredible opportunity for any first-time director to have the opportunity to take the reins, take the chair, whatever metaphor you want, but be the director of a feature that’s going to be seen on movie screens — that’s going to get the support of a studio.” That’s a huge, huge bonus blessing. And I didn’t take the responsibility lightly.

So I said, “Well, here’s the deal. If I’m going to do this movie, if I’m in it or directing it, I feel like this is the story I would want to tell.” It would need to address what happened in Insidious 2, I’d want to get Rose Byrne back, I would want to get Ty Simpkins back, I want to finish the Lambert trilogy. Then we were off to the races.

So it was your idea to go back to the beginning?
Every choice that I made was to honor the first two movies, but also really, really address all the family trauma that happened in the second film. One great piece of advice James gave me, which is very simple, but I said to myself every day, is, “Make it yours.” So we had Dalton go to art school instead of just college. I went to theater school, which is very similar. So it’s all about getting to the core of who you are and unlocking your own demons. That’s all metaphorical in art school, but it’s true with Dalton. And then there’s the father-son relationship. I have two boys, my son is about to go into senior year, so I can relate to those struggles.

And you brought back the original cast, too — not older actors to play your children. 
That was a conversation that I had with those above me: Do you want to audition people? And I said, “No, I want it to be Ty.” I didn’t know his skillset, because he had never been in anything like this — this was before The Whale. You can’t look at someone’s work as a child actor and go, “Oh, I know that when they’re 20, they’re going to be a great actor.” You’re trying to shoot around the kid half the time — you don’t want a kid to do heavy lifting in movies. You know, obviously, there are exceptions.

All I really cared about was if he wanted it — like, do you want to go through this because it’s gonna be a lot? It’s gonna be tough. I think it was very rewarding. Nothing makes me happier than seeing him in that laundry room sequence in the basement, sort of confronting his younger self [in the second movie]. It’s like, you know, man, that’s my movie right there. I wanted to show the legacy of this movie; I wanted to show how emotional it could be for the audience and for these characters to confront their biggest fears, confront their trauma.

So do you think this is the end of the Insidious series? 
No, I don’t think it’s the end of the series. For the Lambert family, I think that the door is closed. Now, come to me in ten years; that would be a cool story. Maybe it’s the daughter going to college. It’s like Boyhood for horror movies. But I don’t know. There could be a spinoff Insidious story, but for the Lambert family, I think this is it. I’ve been possessed, I’ve saved someone, and I’ve been saved. I don’t know what Josh Lambert can go through anymore. So this feels very final for Josh.

I’ve heard that, scientifically, the first movie is one of the scariest movies of all time. What draws you to horror?
I get the chance to get out of my comfort zone. There’s a theatricality that lends itself to horror movies. If I can ground that scene and the audience can buy the performance, I feel like I’ve succeeded. I’d much rather swing a big stick, even if it’s not for everybody. Also, the older I get, I want to work with people that I get along with. You can suck it up in your twenties. But I spent four years of my life, really — in between other movies and Covid and everything else that we all went through — thinking about this movie. So you want it to be around people that are just nice, kind people. Life’s too short.

Are you a fan of horror movies outside of the ones you’re in?
I love people that push the genre. That’s one of the reasons James [Wan] and I got along so well. I remembered the first Insidious movie that I read, I was like, “Hey, these are the guys that did Saw? This movie is this quirky little family drama.” I just love that they were looking to reinvent themselves. So, do I see every single horror movie? No, I don’t. But I tend to gravitate toward the ones that sort of surpass the genre — you know, that really get outside of just, “Oh, the horror base loves it.” Those typically don’t appeal to me.

I was interested in the way that you constructed some of the scares in this movie. If you watch a lot of horror movies, which you obviously have, there are jump-scares that you’re kind of expecting, but I feel like you managed to circumvent that. I’m thinking of the scene where Josh is playing a memory game on his floor-to-ceiling window on the advice of his therapist and, spoiler, the ghost of his dad appears.
It’s funny, even though I’ve been in a bunch of horror movies with great jump-scares, I don’t usually think like that. But I know this is also a franchise that was really built on, like you said, scientifically, the greatest and scariest jump scare at least in modern horror: the demon over my shoulder. So I knew Insidious fans want that. You have to serve the audience first. But I also want to push the audience.

My little townhouse scare — with me flipping the pictures —I’m not gonna lie, I got lots of notes early on that it should be at night. It’s scarier at night. Everything’s scarier at night. But I’d like it to be during the day. Let’s try it. Why not? And they’d ask, “Why does [the ghost] have to bust through the window?” Well, because in other movies, you’d see him twice and then all of a sudden, he’s in the house. So, whatever, is it the scariest thing in the world? I don’t know. Probably not. But, it’s like you just said, I wanted to do things differently.

Am I mistaken, or was there a Bowie song playing in the Further this time around?
It’s the B-Side of [Tiny Tim’s “Tiptoe Through the Tulips”]. James always says I’m so literal, but I like finding lyrics that make sense in a scene. Sometimes that can be heavy-handed, but I like the melodrama. I went through so much music, so many different songs, to come up with the soundtrack and not have it be overbearing. But that was one of the first songs that I picked because I was looking at “Tiptoe,” and I was like, “Well, I know we have to have that in there because audiences love that.” But then I found the B-Side and it’s this crazy-ass song called “Fill Your Heart,” and of course, the lyrics are spot-on. You know, “Forget your mind and you’ll be free.” So creepy.

I learned something just now while you were talking — Bowie covers that song on Hunky Dory, so you do have him in the Further!
That is amazing! We’re actually going to play Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars at our theater in South Orange [New Jersey]. Me and a couple of my friends have a cinema company. We only have two, but we’re building two more.

You also sang on the track on the soundtrack — Ghost’s cover of Shakespears Sister’s 1992 single “Stay.” How did that happen?
That was also a real treat and a dream. I really wanted something special at the end credits, like “Dream Warriors” [by Dokken] from the Nightmare on Elm Street 3 soundtrack. But I didn’t want it to be campy or cheesy or just appeal to 50-year-old white guys. I just knocked it out in an afternoon and Tobias [Forge] was happy with it, the label was happy, so then I told the studio, “Oh, by the way, I used some of my allowance.” They were down with it. I think it’s a very cool emotional and fun track.

I’m curious, as someone who appears in horror movies, what scares you the most?
I don’t get scared at movies. I get scared as a dad and a homeowner and a husband. Making sure all the doors are locked and running through my list of things. What I would do if I had a home intruder — knock on wood. I mean, it sounds so lame. But everything is geared toward my family. I’m really a glass-half-full guy. I don’t get scared on rollercoasters or airplanes or whatever. I get scared for other people — if I can’t help them.

Kind of like your character.
Yeah. That’s probably why I wrote him. Write what you know.

So what’s next for you? The new Aquaman?
Yes, that will be out around Christmas. So until then, I’m just savoring my time. Hit some rock shows with my kids.

You were talking before about it being important for a cast to like each other and be there for each other. With Aquaman, what was it like to have Amber Heard back after everything she went through with the Johnny Depp trial?
I purposely stay out of all of that. It’s very easy to get sidetracked with everything that goes on. I learned a long time ago that I would much rather trust my relationship on screen and my experience at work because that’s really what defines the movie experience. To be totally honest, I only really had one or two scenes with her in the first film. And in the second film, probably the same. I just steered clear of anything extracurricular and always have, it’s just easier for me. I do my thing. I give you one hundred percent when I’m on set and then I leave.

Besides Aquaman, what else do you have on the docket? New Conjuring movies or any other directorial projects?
The strike is pending, so things are on hold. But, yeah, there are some films that I’ve been attached to that I hope get made — one called Tunnels. Actually, I haven’t said that in the press at all and maybe I’m not allowed to. Whatever. There’s another Conjuring movie, a Conjuring limited series and all that. But, yes, outside of horror movies and superhero movies, then it just becomes personal movies. Tunnels is about what happens to a town and a family post-school shooting. So I’m looking to stretch out and be different, not just sit in a horror world, even though I enjoy it. It’s been good to me, certainly. And then looking at, you know, the things that I want to direct that I’ll be allowed to direct. I’ll find something, but I know the task of directing and the time, so it needs to be something that I’m deeply passionate about.

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