An Honest Conversation With Josh Charles

Josh Charles has been a steady, friendly presence for decades, in classic movies like Hairspray and Dead Poets’ Society, on television shows like Sports Night and The Good Wife, and as the triple-collared preppy villain in Wet Hot American Summer: Ten Years After. Now, he’s back to his native Baltimore, playing real-life (allegedly) corrupt cop Daniel Hersl in David Simon and George Pelecanos’ HBO miniseries We Own This City, which premieres April 25.

We caught up with Josh over Zoom a couple of nights before the show’s premiere to talk about his life, his career, and his collars. We had cocktails. This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Esquire: What you sipping on?

Josh Charles: I'm just having a little bourbon and ginger. This will kind of put me to sleep tonight. Nice to meet you, brother. What you got?

Chilled tequila. Good to meet you.

Tequila would've been my choice, but I don't have any good tequila right now.

What are you shooting now?

I'm not supposed to talk about it. I just started a few days ago. It's a very cool director that I'm thrilled to be working with. Love the actors, one of whom I've known for a while. But they really want to keep it under wraps, they’re calling it a different name and everything.

So, Marvel.

It's a Marvel movie. Can you imagine, one whiskey and you get it out of me? No, it’s definitely not that.

Where are you?

We're shooting in New York. I live here. I'm calling you from my bedroom. My wife's away and my kids are sleeping and that's what it is.

Whereabouts?

In the Village. Been in this area for a very long time.

That's the ideal situation. When I’m in New York, I roam the West Village and pretend I'm in an episode of Kate & Allie.

That's such a great, random pull. I used to have the biggest crush on one of the daughters on that show. I remember going to see it live. I feel like they taped that show at the Ed Sullivan Theater. Is that possible?

Want more of Esquire? Sign up for Esquire Select.

I don't know, I guess. Did you do that a lot in New York? Go to live tapings of sitcoms?

No, not really. Oh my God, there’s one I remember vividly. I was living in L.A. and my grandmother came out to visit me with an Israeli friend of hers, and it was a big deal because I got them tickets to see Seinfeld. And aside from that Kate & Allie, I had never really done that in my life. I knew a couple of people there, so I got us good seats right in the front. Jerry comes out to do the little pre-game speech to the audience, and my grandma's friend was like, "Tell us about Shoshanna." And he's like, "Oh, we're not going to talk about that." He's trying to get the show started and she's like, "Tell us about Shoshanna." I was like, oh great.

How's your last couple years been?

Jesus, man, that's a good question. I think like anyone, I'm still processing it. I'll tell you, I have one friend who's living in L.A. now, he came back in town to edit a film he's directed. I've seen my other friends here and there periodically, but this guy and I had dinner twice in a two week period. I wrote to him after it like, "God, I really didn't realize how much I missed the interaction with friends in a restaurant." Things that you just take for granted.

Honestly, I feel for my daughter the most, because she’s had a mask on for so much of her life. I was reading a book with her the other night and she said something like, "Where are their masks?" And I just thought, Fucking hell, it’s a fair question. I know they say kids are resilient and I know that's all likely true, but I worry about that for her.

We both turned 50 last year. So first of all, happy birthday.

Right. Happy birthday. I mean, that’s one that you talk about. That's a big marker, right? I really struggled, not about turning 50, more that I always had all these cool ideas in my mind about what I was going to do for my 50th, and then the pandemic pushed those away, and I wasn't even sure I wanted to have a party. My wife put something together for me, which was really beautiful and intimate with some friends on a rooftop. It was really nice. I realized that I've got a lot of good friends in this world and that we're all struggling.

So 50, I can't quite still process it. Here’s one of the things I'm noticing: hangovers are a little tougher.

They’re existential now.

All the sports injuries that I've had in my life, just ankle and wrists and shoulder things I used to just roll through, they're all coming back at the same time now. And just that sort of lingers. But it beats being dead.

I think a lot about this, because I waited longer to have kids. There are times where I just think like, oh my God, had I not waited longer I'd have so much more energy being a parent getting through the day. But it's also great. Growing up in this business, you're just always moving and moving, and now there's a part of me of that’s just just being appreciative of what I have and being a little bit more in the moment. It feels good.

You've been around since I was in high school. And to me, you have an approachable quality about you. Do people overstep with you sometimes?

Occasionally, but no, not much. Most people are really respectful and cool and it drowns out the few bad apples. I've actually made a few good friendships via social media. Some people I've never met, but I feel like we know each other, and I really like that. I've been lucky enough to work in this industry for a long time. I've worked with people that are wildly successful and super famous. The people that I respond to are the people treat people really well.

Did you interact with [your We Own This City character] Daniel Hersl in real life at all?

I made a choice not to. I knew the story very well growing up in Baltimore and reading Justin Fenton's reporting. I was like, someone's going to make this into a fucking movie or a TV show. And I couldn't think of anybody better than David and George and their team to do it, because they know the world so well.

So I was excited to be asked to be a part of it, but I didn't want to talk to Daniel. I wanted to talk to people that had worked with him, which I did. I wanted to watch as much body cam footage of him as I could, to see how he behaves with other detectives when they weren't sure the camera was on. How he dealt with people on the street and talked to the people that worked with him pre Gun Trace Task Force. I read D. Watkins’ article about him. D was one of the writers on We Own the City, he’s a talented writer from Baltimore who wrote a beautiful article about himself and Hersl and how they intersected.

I also thought it was unique that Hersl was the one detective of the Gun Trace Task Force that was actually from Baltimore proper. I know where he's from. I know Highlandtown, I know people from Highlandtown, I understand it. But I didn't want to talk to him because it's not the Daniel Hersl story.

So now it's premiere and promo time. Is that enjoyable at all?

It is. Where the fuck did I put my drink? Did I knock it over? ...Here it is. Okay, I'll tell you this: it's enjoyable when you really like what you're doing. I care about this story. It's not the most pleasant story, but it needs to be told. It's being told by really great storytellers about my hometown, a hometown that is very much a part of my identity. There's so many great things about my city. It’s very pleasant when you're happy and proud of something. And I'm very proud to be a part of this.

Good. Okay, I have a couple questions about some past projects. Is it true that your actual first movie was Hairspray?

Yes. Hairspray was my first movie. I was 15 years old. I'm now 50. So 35 years later I get to work in Baltimore again. My joke is I'm going for the trifecta. I did John Waters, now I'm doing David Simon and George Pelecanos. And then I want Barry Levinson, and I can just retire from my Baltimore films. Oh, and I've worked with Derek Waters who created Drunk History. Although I know Drunk History is not a Baltimore show per se, but Derek is a fantastic Baltimorean, and I'm proud of him. There's probably other people I'm leaving out, but I've just got to work with Barry Levinson, and then I'm done.

That's put out into the universe now. So you're 15 years old, you’re working on a John Waters movie. Do you remember a piece of career advice that you got from Vitamin C?

From who?

Vitamin C.

Wait. What's Vitamin C?

Josh. Colleen Fitzpatrick. The woman who played Amber von Tussle went on to become a pop star called Vitamin C. Am I telling you this for the first time?

I should know that. When did that happen? Should I know that? She was amazing. God, I had fantastic memories from that film. Getting high with Divine.

Excuse me?

What's better than that? That was incredible. And hanging out with Debbie Harry at the wrap party. I remember one night I drove in a car with my dad, and somehow my dad was driving me, Sonny Bono, and Jerry Stiller. How, I don't know, but he was driving us somewhere. It was a really fun experience to have as your first movie.

What do a 15-year-old and Divine talk about stoned in 1986?

Oh my God, I absolutely loved Divine. I had seen some of John's movies, of course, and knew how shocking some of them were. Hairspray was his crossover movie, I think that's fair to say. Divine was so good in it, playing all the different parts. I felt the talent, and that more roles were coming. I moved to New York soon after that and happened to move into the same building, and then he passed away. I thought Divine was on the way to a great moment, I don't know. I don't remember what we spoke about, but I do remember laughing my ass off.

Next question: What is it like to get a fresh Aaron Sorkin television script? Is it Christmas morning, the way that I imagine it to be?

Eh.

"Eh?"

I mean, no. Not really.

Really?

Well, I mean, that's going to sound wrong. Let me say that clearly. Yes, doing [Sports Night], there were certain scripts that were absolutely mind-blowing. The man has a gift. No one would dispute that he has an incredible gift for writing. But I don't know if it's like… I wouldn't look at every one and open it up like it was Christmas. Everybody's human and some are better than others.

Sure.

To be frank with you, other writers that I've worked with, I'm much more excited about opening up their scripts.

My thing with Aaron Sorkin is even when the show or the movie is not working for me, I always feel like the actors are having so much fun with the dialogue.

Hmm. I mean, again, I think his stuff works incredibly well. I mean, it can. I personally think when it works best is when it's in a film and there's a director who's checking it a little bit. I think that's where Aaron's stuff even sings more, when there’s a Fincher or a Warren Beatty or a Rob Reiner. What you're saying is you feel like the actors are always having fun, and yes, I guess they are. It works in The West Wing to extraordinary degree. It's fun to watch them have the wordplay. When you're doing a steady diet of it I think it feels a little self-conscious to me, honestly. I find it very aware of itself.

Huh.

I feel like you always notice the writer's in the room, and I acknowledge that there's a brilliance in that. He has a gift and it's remarkable. But when you're performing it, at least on a television show where it's a weekly thing, I found that tricky. I find it very self-conscious if you want to know the truth. So there, I said it. Sorry to burst your bubble.

No, I'm happy to know that. Thank you. A day on Wet Hot American Summer…

Now, that's fun. That's not anybody taking themselves seriously. Listen, I've known those guys for a long time. I consider Mike Showalter one of my closest friends. And Mike Black and I went to camp together. That whole group of The State, and Stella, we're all in the same circle. I wasn't involved in the original film obviously, but when Mike asked me to do this role, I was just so excited I couldn't even think straight.

Did you double collar it in real life in the '80s?

I don't think I ever double collared. I definitely might have flipped it. I might have flipped the collar once or twice, but it wasn't my jam. Members Only jackets were my jam. I liked that Members Only jacket a lot. I liked those parachute pants a lot. You know what I'm talking about?

Of course. You want shine on your pants. You want your pants to make a noise.

That's right. That's what I got. Parachute pants. They're shiny, a little soft stuff on the side.

The move in 1983, 1984 was either camouflage pants or parachute pants. And then a kid in my seventh-grade class got camouflage parachute pants. And the rest of us were just like, well, this man has changed the game. Hideous in retrospect.

No, of course. What were we thinking?

What are we ever thinking?

What the fuck were we thinking? I feel like I really let you down with my Aaron answer, because you’re obviously a huge fan and…

I’m not, though! That’s the thing.

“It's like Christmas every week.” I could just have just lied and said that. But I didn't want to do that, because I feel like… I'm trying to be as respectful as I can, and I appreciate his talent. I really do. But I also feel like there's enough people that think he's the second coming of Jesus Christ, you know? His self probably included. But you asked me a question and I wanted to give you an honest answer.

And I appreciate that.

There are writers I work with that I actually do feel that way about, and he's not one of them.

And it's not that I’m his biggest fan, it just seems like an actor would think: if nothing else, I know I will have fun with this language.

It is unique. And I'll tell you the truth, just to give you more context on it. There are scenes that I got to do that were exceptional.

Do you remember one off the top of your head?

Well, I mean, "The Apology." I remember how much I loved reading that script. That was the second script after the pilot, and it just felt so fresh and unique. I'm trying to think of other moments. I want to say The Quality of Mercy at…something. [ed. note: season one episode "The Quality of Mercy at 29K.”] I don't remember, but the homeless guy finds his way into our office, and I share a sandwich with him. Obviously, me and Peter developed such a good friendship, Josh Malina and I. And I love the dynamic of me and Isaac's characters. There was one where I couldn't pronounce the guy's name or something, and I was getting the yips. That was really kind of brilliant.

There were so many times where it was like this writing is incredible. And then there were other times where I would say this writing's very aware of itself and it's very much in the room with you always. I guess it just became a taste thing. People respond to it, but performing it on a weekly basis, I found it not my cup of tea.

It's funny looking back at the episodes that have a laugh track. It feels like the laugh track is pointing out what’s difficult about the script.

The laugh track was fucking horrible. That was something I think we all agreed on, was that that just didn't make any sense. Early on, I think we shot one day in front of a live audience, because the network wanted that kind of feel. And then the other two days we would shoot just regular, without an audience, single camera style. I don't remember when we stopped, but I think even the network realized this is just not that show. So then we could lose the live audience day.

Well, Josh, I don't want to take up any more of your time. It's late.

Got it. Thanks brother. All right. I'll talk to you.

A note from the author: Immediately after our conversation, I sent Josh the video for Vitamin C’s debut single “Smile.” His response: “Amazing.”

You Might Also Like

• HOW TO FIND THE PERFECT SUNGLASSES FOR YOUR FACE SHAPE

• If You Don’t Have a Denim Shirt Yet, What’s Stopping You?

• Why You'll Never Understand Mezcal Like You Understand Scotch