'The Falcon and the Winter Soldier' creator Malcolm Spellman recalls coming up as a screenwriter: 'It was so biased'

Writer and producer Malcolm Spellman is the creator behind Marvel's latest project, the Disney+ series, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, which co-stars Anthony Mackie (Sam Wilson/Falcon) and Sebastian Stan (Bucky Barnes/Winter Soldier).

Spellman recently spoke to Yahoo Entertainment as part of its Game Changers series, and shared his thoughts on the challenges in breaking through as a screenwriter, and how race plays a role in his new show.

"Sam [Wilson] is a black man. And not only is he a black man, he's a black man from the South," Spellman said. "And we knew that the stars and stripes [shield] ... that symbol in his hand doesn't mean the same thing it does in Steve [Rogers'] hand."

During his early days as a screenwriter, Spellman recalled pitch meetings that were "so biased."

"I would take meetings and execs would straight up say to your face, 'Hey, great to meet you Malcolm. Now, you know, we don't do black projects here,'" Spellman said.

Watch more from Spellman in the video above.

Video Transcript

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: I would take meetings, and execs would straight up say to your face, opening up the meeting, hey, great to meet you, Malcolm. Now, you know we don't do Black projects here.

- We need new heroes, ones suited for the times we're in. Courageous, righteous, the best in all of us.

KEVIN POLOWY: Both you and Kevin Feige have said "The Falcon and the Winter Soldier" will explore race and identity in America probably more than past MCU projects. How would you describe the show's approach to Sam in that regard?

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: I knew showing up being Black, that all the Marvel characters have very decided identities. Thor talks like someone from Asgard. T'Chala talks like a king. You know what I'm saying? Captain America talks like the captain of the football team. And Iron Man, all these characters have distinct personalities.

We knew that Sam needed to be decidedly Black in his identity and his mannerisms. At the same time, Anthony had also constructed a Sam that existed for 10 years that had to be regal and very, very heroic. Sam is a Black man. And not only is he a Black man, he's a Black man from the South.

And we knew that the stars and stripes, that symbol in his hand doesn't mean the same thing it does in Steve's hand because it just means something else. And you can't hide from it. And we would have been making a fake show if we tried to.

KEVIN POLOWY: Obviously, you don't just graduate right from film school to a Marvel series. You've been a working screenwriter and producer for a long time. First off, did you go to film school? What can you tell us about the beginning of your journey?

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: No, I didn't go to college. I didn't go to film school. It was a difficult journey. I didn't know how to function in this culture. So my career fell apart a few times, just not knowing how to interface with a culture that's very different from how I came up.

But eventually I figured it out. And it came to me late in life, meaning this, I sold a first script 20 years ago. But for the first 10 to 12 years, I mostly did not make my money in screenwriting.

If we was in another forum, I'd happily go into more detail. You'll find other stuff out there. But I just want to be respectful of Disney.

KEVIN POLOWY: I remember the episode of ScriptNotes where you were talking about all the heat you generated at some point. And then I think you said you just fell off the map for three to four years.

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: Four a half years, bro. No work, no reps, nobody answer my phone calls. And I hadn't done nothing wrong. I just let my career die because I didn't know how to make a career work.

KEVIN POLOWY: When it comes to representation in Hollywood, so much of the conversation tends to focus on screen. But as all the studies will tell you, the bigger discrepancies tend to be off screen or further below the line. You said before, I got to work twice as hard to get half as far. What frustrations have you faced as a Black screenwriter in this industry?

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: I would take meetings, and execs would straight up say to your face, opening up the meeting, hey, great to meet you, Malcolm. Now, you know we don't do Black projects here. Now, once someone has said that, you already know they've identified you appropriately as Black. They are telling you they don't do Black projects. And they definitely have put you in a box that means you are not going to work here.

Again, the first project I ever sold, it was a project about a Black kid. This is before "Fast and Furious" and all that, so the term multiculti didn't exist. A Black kid who wanted to be a skateboarder in the X-Games. And it was hot. And I was the hot dude out.

Eventually I got the note, this hurts me more to say than you to hear it, this is the only Black character in the movie. We have to change that kid to a white dude. And magnify that by 1,000, and it just was very, very, very difficult, and very, very frustrating. And along comes "Empire."

- Now, I remember working on that six months before I went to prison. So whose DNA is in that, Lucious?

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: That shattered this first layer of diversity. Right after "Empire", only a couple of years later, "Hidden Figures" and "Black Panther" drop, along with a bunch of other projects. And all of a sudden the business is realizing, oh man, we've been leaving money on the table this whole time. These things are crossing over.

KEVIN POLOWY: I mean, Lee Daniels I think said, early on he wanted to make a Black "Dynasty". Clearly, that show had just a massive, massive impact on the culture. Did you see "Empire" early on as a show that could potentially change the landscape of television?

MALCOLM SPELLMAN: No, I've got to admit I was so beaten down at that time, I couldn't even imagine a show that Black getting made. When I saw that thing, and you see this is a Black show top-to-bottom, lead, the writing staff, the actors, I was like, god bless them, I did not know that show would do that well. And to be fair, what could I have based it on, "The Cosby Show" 20, 30 years earlier? Took a while to get my confidence back, too.

Working at Marvel, they've been very good. Marvel is tough, but, man, they are supportive. The way they work is Kevin trusts Nate. And Nate must have said, this is my guy. And Nate advocated for me. And we was off and running after that.

There were a few cities around the country way back then that were comic book cities. Berkeley had two legendary shops. And me and my boys from South Berkeley, man, we'd be up in them stores all the time. When we was broke, we'd steal the books. I'm sure they knew who was doing it.

And to go from that to watching the Marvel movies, and then get to do this thing, it's a dream come true. In a million years, I never thought I'd actually be able to be there.